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Post by Venter on Dec 6, 2013 15:28:10 GMT -5
OMG! Did ANYONE see this coming? Oh yeah:
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Dexter
Supreme Poster
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Post by Dexter on Dec 6, 2013 17:09:43 GMT -5
Shocked, shocked I say!!!
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Post by Alex Oreilly on Dec 6, 2013 17:23:02 GMT -5
Just great, now what happens to the new transit building? Who owns that the Borough or Rabbit Transit???
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moose
Post Master
Posts: 184
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Post by moose on Dec 6, 2013 19:07:15 GMT -5
www.eveningsun.com/local/ci_24672206/freedom-transit-gets-axLooks like Adams County could be on the hook for $2 mil according to this article. Sounds like someone didn't think this through too good. Looks like the county will need to maintain this coffee-shop looking transit building for the near future. Did someone mention a county parking lot? That's the trouble with taking federal dollars. It always seems like there's strings attached to this "free" money. Maybe that's why the county took a $10 mil line of credit out, for unforeseen things like this? Who's to blame for this...the Solicitor for not bringing to the Commissioners' attention the pitfalls of this arrangement.....or the County Manager...for being the Manager? EDIT: Sorry, made the article a .pdf for those who can't access the url freedom-transit-gets-ax-12-06-13.pdf (90.46 KB)
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Post by Venter on Dec 6, 2013 21:45:12 GMT -5
Maybe the building could house a Taxi Cab Service? How about a small van service?
Or the Horse & Buggy Rides could have a new starting off point. Or a Central Transportation Hub: Car Rentals, Bike, Scooter, Segway...
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Post by lifesaver on Dec 7, 2013 9:46:37 GMT -5
Apparently it might not be done deal.
I don't agree with the comment made by Mr. Gormont
Gotta tell you Mr. Gormont, if I worked in Harrisburg I would damn sure take advantage of public transportation! Cost of vehicle, maintenance, insurance, parking, etc. for me that would be a "no brainer". For the convenience I would gladly pay the fee to ride! I think it would be a savings no matter which way you look at it! And added for me no driving in city traffic! Baltimore Metro last stop lets you out right out at John Hopkins. I know local people who work at John Hopkins take advantage of public transportation every day to get to work. Drive to Owings Mills, hop on the Metro, and get dropped off at the front door! I was not aware of this! Does anyone else know this? So.....why not charge a nominal fee to ride and "bill" Gettysburg College and Gettysburg Foundation for the rest of the fare?
According to the article in the Hanover paper ridership on rural lines for Freedom Transit exceeds the national ridership for rural areas. As far as I know there is currently no taxi service in Gettysburg. It seems to me that there may be a need for this type of service in the county. It seems to me that a lack of information, decisions based on personal opinion (like Mr. Gormont's) and lack of initiative to pursue funding assistance from the avenues that would benefit the most from the service is part of the reason the system has failed.
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moose
Post Master
Posts: 184
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Post by moose on Dec 7, 2013 12:49:31 GMT -5
Assuming that is the complete article, I don't see any mention of the consequences ($2 mil) of this endeavor not being funded. Kudos to the Evening Sun for adding that part of the equation!
As for Mr. Gormont, he didn't say that it doesn't make sense from a user perspective, he is playing the role of a public servant, charged with spending the public's money prudently in a way that benefits the whole of his constituency, not just a few. I don't have a problem with that. That is completely opposite of what usually happens in Adams County. Usually, the taxing districts take taxpayer monies, paid by many, to help a few. Examples of that are Clean & Green preferential discounts (many of which are not categorized properly), as well as the hundreds of thousands of dollars budgeted annually for easements. These subsidies are collected by every real property owner (taxpayer), but only benefit the lucky few. Unless of course, you count being able to ride by these lovely lands that you pay for, and admire them from the road.
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Post by Venter on Dec 7, 2013 13:31:51 GMT -5
Who says you can't flog a dead horse? In many towns, there are Shuttles from the Hotels to various scenic locations. Small 9 and 15 passenger vans. Is it possible for someone with a School Bus Franchise to think about extending those services to Tourists and Residents? It seems like the insurances and qualifications for drivers are already in place. And, the vehicles are usually in mothballs during Gettysburg's busiest seasons.
Like I said before... Anyone want to subsidize MY business?
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Post by lifesaver on Dec 7, 2013 14:17:06 GMT -5
Assuming that is the complete article, I don't see any mention of the consequences ($2 mil) of this endeavor not being funded. Kudos to the Evening Sun for adding that part of the equation! As for Mr. Gormont, he didn't say that it doesn't make sense from a user perspective, he is playing the role of a public servant, charged with spending the public's money prudently in a way that benefits the whole of his constituency, not just a few. I don't have a problem with that. That is completely opposite of what usually happens in Adams County. Usually, the taxing districts take taxpayer monies, paid by many, to help a few. Examples of that are Clean & Green preferential discounts (many of which are not categorized properly), as well as the hundreds of thousands of dollars budgeted annually for easements. These subsidies are collected by every real property owner (taxpayer), but only benefit the lucky few. Unless of course, you count being able to ride by these lovely lands that you pay for, and admire them from the road.
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Post by lifesaver on Dec 7, 2013 14:31:09 GMT -5
OK...don't know what the heck happened to my post, but I'll try to remember. To moose, in most cases I can agree with Mr. Gormont, but not in this one. Mt. Joy directly benefits from a stop by Freedom Transit at the Outlets. Plus, I'm fairly certain that a few people take advantage of the Harrisburg runs. So, Mt. Joy would directly benefit by tax revenues from the Outlets, correct? In my township there are NO direct benefits from Freedom Transit, no stops there, but again I would imagine a few would take advantage of the Harrisburg runs. From the $2 million consequence for the failure of this venture, from a business perspective, wouldn't it be advantageous to find a way to make things work rather than scrap the whole project? Would it be feasible to base contributions on a scale based on the benefits of the transit to a particular township, rather than a blanket tax for the entire county? In my opinion, having some type of public transportation would be a plus in drawing new businesses to the county.
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Post by lifesaver on Dec 7, 2013 14:37:41 GMT -5
Who says you can't flog a dead horse? In many towns, there are Shuttles from the Hotels to various scenic locations. Small 9 and 15 passenger vans. Is it possible for someone with a School Bus Franchise to think about extending those services to Tourists and Residents? It seems like the insurances and qualifications for drivers are already in place. And, the vehicles are usually in mothballs during Gettysburg's busiest seasons. Like I said before... Anyone want to subsidize MY business? Back when I was a kid buses would pick up kids throughout the county and take them to the orchards to pick sour cherries in the summer. Although I didn't have to ride the bus, from the time I was seven years old that was my source of income for school clothes etc. Of course when I was a kid and you acted up on the bus the bus driver could stop the bus, kick you off and you would walk. No matter where you were. Oh, for the good old days.....
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moose
Post Master
Posts: 184
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Post by moose on Dec 7, 2013 14:54:57 GMT -5
Mt. Joy directly benefits from a stop by Freedom Transit at the Outlets. Plus, I'm fairly certain that a few people take advantage of the Harrisburg runs. So, Mt. Joy would directly benefit by tax revenues from the Outlets, correct? In my township there are NO direct benefits from Freedom Transit, no stops there, but again I would imagine a few would take advantage of the Harrisburg runs. From the $2 million consequence for the failure of this venture, from a business perspective, wouldn't it be advantageous to find a way to make things work rather than scrap the whole project? Would it be feasible to base contributions on a scale based on the benefits of the transit to a particular township, rather than a blanket tax for the entire county? I haven't seen any statistics to say how many folks visit the Outlets from Harrisburg, or any other area. I'd have to see those numbers to make a cost analysis vs benefit to keep keep the lines running. Regarding the potential $2 mil hit...I guess at some point someone will need to decide if it's better to bleed a slow death, or hemorrhage and get it over with. Bottom line, it looks like SOMEONE screwed up and didn't factor all the variables into this. For crying out loud, the transit station has only been open...what, a year? In my opinion, having some type of public transportation would be a plus in drawing new businesses to the county. The county doesn't WANT to develop more new business! They want status quo, and they want open space as far as the eye can see...and they want all the unfortunate people who own LESS than ten acres, to pay for it. If you don't believe that...you need to read this scholarly piece by our own Solicitor, John Hartzell. In it, he proclaims his profound fear of development. Why do you think he is still employed by the county? digitalcommons.law.villanova.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1176&context=elj
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Post by Fire Marshal Bill on Dec 7, 2013 15:27:48 GMT -5
Maybe the building could house a Taxi Cab Service? How about a small van service? Or the Horse & Buggy Rides could have a new starting off point. Or a Central Transportation Hub: Car Rentals, Bike, Scooter, Segway... Didn't I read someplace that when they constructed the building it was intended that it could also serve as a restaurant should the bus service fail?
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Post by lifesaver on Dec 7, 2013 21:05:56 GMT -5
Mt. Joy directly benefits from a stop by Freedom Transit at the Outlets. Plus, I'm fairly certain that a few people take advantage of the Harrisburg runs. So, Mt. Joy would directly benefit by tax revenues from the Outlets, correct? In my township there are NO direct benefits from Freedom Transit, no stops there, but again I would imagine a few would take advantage of the Harrisburg runs. From the $2 million consequence for the failure of this venture, from a business perspective, wouldn't it be advantageous to find a way to make things work rather than scrap the whole project? Would it be feasible to base contributions on a scale based on the benefits of the transit to a particular township, rather than a blanket tax for the entire county? I haven't seen any statistics to say how many folks visit the Outlets from Harrisburg, or any other area. I'd have to see those numbers to make a cost analysis vs benefit to keep keep the lines running. Regarding the potential $2 mil hit...I guess at some point someone will need to decide if it's better to bleed a slow death, or hemorrhage and get it over with. Bottom line, it looks like SOMEONE screwed up and didn't factor all the variables into this. For crying out loud, the transit station has only been open...what, a year? In my opinion, having some type of public transportation would be a plus in drawing new businesses to the county. The county doesn't WANT to develop more new business! They want status quo, and they want open space as far as the eye can see...and they want all the unfortunate people who own LESS than ten acres, to pay for it. If you don't believe that...you need to read this scholarly piece by our own Solicitor, John Hartzell. In it, he proclaims his profound fear of development. Why do you think he is still employed by the county? digitalcommons.law.villanova.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1176&context=elj moose, I was talking about those who used the bus services back and forth to and from Harrisburg for work. The Freedom transit is local transportation. Which is why I think that a structured tax based on potential benefit from the service would be appropriate for each township in this case in place of a flat county tax. My computer is acting up at the moment and I can't get the attachment concerning development to open. When I have time to sit down and read it then I'll comment further on that aspect. I will say that I do agree that the Clean and Green program has been abused and I wish you luck in your pursuit to rectify that.
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Post by Venter on Dec 8, 2013 18:20:44 GMT -5
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Post by diogenes on Dec 8, 2013 20:24:06 GMT -5
I might have missed it but are there provisions to keep the format of the "old" ACTA where the elderly and others could call ACTA and get transportation to doctor's appointments, etc? Or is that part of YATA now and it is only Freedom Transit that bites the dust? BTW, the three legged stool applies to community clleges as well-- one third county, one third local school districts and one third students...we all know how that work locally.
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davew
Poster Child
Posts: 308
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Post by davew on Dec 9, 2013 9:18:06 GMT -5
Local townships could use more folks like gormont. If harrisburg wants to make travel more friendly to promote their own economy, they can foot the bill.
There is an option for people who want to go to harrisburg but not pay for transportation solely themselves - that is carpooling. Out here, there are van pools for people who live far from the city, where the van pool owns one of those big ford econoline vans and a group of people rides it. The group drives the van, too, so there isn't a cost for a driver. They just have to designate drivers to drive the van.
Seems to work pretty well, and while it's probably subsidized, it isn't nearly the mess that a bus transit system is.
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Post by lifesaver on Dec 9, 2013 9:25:32 GMT -5
Local townships could use more folks like gormont. If harrisburg wants to make travel more friendly to promote their own economy, they can foot the bill. There is an option for people who want to go to harrisburg but not pay for transportation solely themselves - that is carpooling. Out here, there are van pools for people who live far from the city, where the van pool owns one of those big ford econoline vans and a group of people rides it. The group drives the van, too, so there isn't a cost for a driver. They just have to designate drivers to drive the van. Seems to work pretty well, and while it's probably subsidized, it isn't nearly the mess that a bus transit system is. As long as they wouldn't designate me to drive that van I'd be down for that. While there are points on which I agree with Gormont, I don't for his statement concerning the bus service, and 100% against his and the other township supervisors of Mt. Joy on the fire tax. But that's a whole other issue
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Post by Venter on Dec 9, 2013 9:53:16 GMT -5
Maybe the building could house a Taxi Cab Service? How about a small van service? Or the Horse & Buggy Rides could have a new starting off point. Or a Central Transportation Hub: Car Rentals, Bike, Scooter, Segway... Didn't I read someplace that when they constructed the building it was intended that it could also serve as a restaurant should the bus service fail? They could call it "BusWay"!It might just catch on
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davew
Poster Child
Posts: 308
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Post by davew on Dec 9, 2013 14:17:17 GMT -5
Local townships could use more folks like gormont. If harrisburg wants to make travel more friendly to promote their own economy, they can foot the bill. There is an option for people who want to go to harrisburg but not pay for transportation solely themselves - that is carpooling. Out here, there are van pools for people who live far from the city, where the van pool owns one of those big ford econoline vans and a group of people rides it. The group drives the van, too, so there isn't a cost for a driver. They just have to designate drivers to drive the van. Seems to work pretty well, and while it's probably subsidized, it isn't nearly the mess that a bus transit system is. As long as they wouldn't designate me to drive that van I'd be down for that. While there are points on which I agree with Gormont, I don't for his statement concerning the bus service, and 100% against his and the other township supervisors of Mt. Joy on the fire tax. But that's a whole other issue I live 7 miles from the city. The bus that takes me in is *full* or close to it every day, as are many around here, and I suppose it starts about 15 miles outside of the city and makes its route once an hour. We still can't come close to covering expenses for transit around here, even with two-way fares in the $4.50-$7 range (depending on how far out you are) and full buses (it's more like a third of the cost or so). It's crazy for them to believe that there is enough population density and common destinations around there to get good ridership. I don't know what the van pools cost taxpayers, but it appears to be about $100 per rider per month (which is AWFULLY cheap if you think about the cost to actually drive a car 70 miles a day and park it). We have people from 35 miles away coming to the office via those van pools. It costs me about $100 per month to get a pass to ride the bus, and I can't go out past the range of the short zone (the $4.50 round trip fare), so there has to be subsidizing of those vans, but at the same time, it probably doesn't equate to the cost of running a service that has paid drivers, etc. I can't imagine something like this doesn't already exist for harrisburg. www.commuteinfo.org/comm_options_vanpool.shtml
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Post by philliesfan on Dec 9, 2013 14:39:11 GMT -5
Fire Marshal Bill's comment about the Transit Center Bldg. being a perfect fit for a restaurant is correct. I recall it being mentioned in the paper and my first thought was that it will be eventually sold to the college and turned into a trendy bistro or deli and that would fit in with the long range plans for the construction of trendy shops in and around the proposed newly excavated property between Stratton & Carlisle Steets.
Wasn't the Transit Center Bldg. constructed with grant funds? If so, what is the legality of selling that property to a private institution? Just wondering?
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Post by Fire Marshal Bill on Dec 9, 2013 16:10:52 GMT -5
Gettysburg is large enough to have some kind of mass transit, and to support this I believe is important, but not to completely subsidize it.
As to transporting local people to Harrisburg, why not? They are living in Adams County, and if they are ridding the bus, they probably aren’t doing their shopping in Harrisburg, they are more than likely doing it here.
And if the shuttles are taking people to the outlets, aren’t they supporting the township by keeping those businesses in business?
With the parking problems downtown, we need a shuttle that can be used more by local people. Maybe some satellite parking areas on the outskirts of town where people working downtown can park and ride for a few dollars a month. Ridding to work, and leaving the car out of town, so that parking space is available for shoppers and tourist.
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Post by getysbg on Dec 10, 2013 8:29:18 GMT -5
Gettysburg is large enough to have some kind of mass transit, and to support this I believe is important, but not to completely subsidize it. As to transporting local people to Harrisburg, why not? They are living in Adams County, and if they are ridding the bus, they probably aren’t doing their shopping in Harrisburg, they are more than likely doing it here. And if the shuttles are taking people to the outlets, aren’t they supporting the township by keeping those businesses in business? With the parking problems downtown, we need a shuttle that can be used more by local people. Maybe some satellite parking areas on the outskirts of town where people working downtown can park and ride for a few dollars a month. Ridding to work, and leaving the car out of town, so that parking space is available for shoppers and tourist. As with any new service, it takes time to "grow". Even without the 150th, ridership is up significantly. I see people exiting the bus all the time at Giant. Will it ever pay for itself? No. Be profitable? Heck, No. Be appreciated by those that think if they don't use so they shouldn't have to pay a dime for it? Hell, double hell, no! This service adds to quality of life. Also, perhaps the businesses could chip in. ( Are you listening, Outlet Stores?)
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davew
Poster Child
Posts: 308
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Post by davew on Dec 10, 2013 8:50:29 GMT -5
I'm sure the outlets have a good idea of how many of their shoppers come by bus, and it's very unlikely it's a material amount of their revenue. The trouble with the notion that an area like gettysburg needs to have a public transit loop is that until it is so expensive to drive that a large % of the population can't afford it, you are never going to do it without heavily subsidizing it. And to do so as heavily as is required is really unfair to people who don't use it.
The bigger you try to make the system in the search of a level where it's closer to supporting itself, the more expensive it becomes in total.
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Post by Mr Blonde on Dec 10, 2013 10:50:58 GMT -5
Just to be clear, they need $65,000 to continue to operate and have received $12,000 so far. To keep it running they're expecting private companies and businesses to pony up the remaining $53,000? Yeah, that's not happening.
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