Thoughts on The Proposed 55 and Older Development?

[Alex Oreilly]

A Developer has been proposing to build a 55 and older Development in Straban Township. He wants to use the TIF tax structure to help repay the bond.
The Straban Supervisors, keep putting it off because they want more information on it or they just want to keep delaying it and hope they get tired of waiting and drop the whole subject.

With a development like this would definitely bring construction jobs to the area, not sure of what other kinds though, I don't what is all in the development.

As for the bond repayment, I don't see a problem with it once the bond is repaid then that money goes back to the Township, County and School District.

[diogenes]

I now live in Green Valley, Arizona (GV), giving up the simplicity (?) and beauty of Adams County for the desert landscape and lack of snow and ice. And I live in an over-52 development. It took GV since the late '60's to grow into what it is today, an ideal location for those of us who no longer need or can safely use the acres that go with rural living. The concentration of couples/singles over 52 is a cost effective approach so locals need to be patient to see the over-55 development become something else than a storage point for older people. Infrastructure and social networks are critical and take time to develop. Of the most critical nature--and this is the voice of experience--are the structure and viability (two separate factors) of the home owners association...our CCR's (codes, covenants, and restrictions) are 50+ pages long and they are enforced...with all due processes of the law being recognized. It is not a simple project.

[davew]

How about an option for, "development is good, get rid of the tif financing, though"

?

[Alex Oreilly]

Feb 6, 2014 16:08:21 GMT -5 davew said:

How about an option for, "development is good, get rid of the tif financing, though"

?

I really don't think the Tif financing is a bad thing, With the way the economy is this might be what Developers need to start building again.

[davew]

If it's structured like this type, it leaves someone else paying more than their share. the group of 55+ individuals might be the only aggregate group in this country that even consistently has postive net worth. So much allocation and debt has already been incurred to promise them benefits, etc.

I just don't like things that bind you into an obligation that someone else is then supposed to pay for.

Here is the : "this type":
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TIF_graph.pdf

[lifesaver]

Feb 7, 2014 7:40:48 GMT -5 davew said:

If it's structured like this type, it leaves someone else paying more than their share. the group of 55+ individuals might be the only aggregate group in this country that even consistently has postive net worth. So much allocation and debt has already been incurred to promise them benefits, etc.

I just don't like things that bind you into an obligation that someone else is then supposed to pay for.

Here is the : "this type":
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TIF_graph.pdf

I was against TIF financing myself, however, with our economy recovering at a snail's pace apparently TIF financing is the only way that anyone has any interest in getting these type of projects off the ground.  With this project (and the wherever it is in the project shopping center) the TIF funds would be used for infrastructure improvements, not the actual project itself.  Looking at the long term effects on the local economy, and learning more about the project itself, I now see it in a more positive light.

[Venter]

I'm not sure about the TIF either.
Can someone please enlighten us on the Pros and Cons of TIF?

[moose]

I don't like TIF's. Paul Kellett can probably explain better than I, but the bottom line is the developers want the public to finance infrastructure costs to move the project along. Usually in the past, the developers would absorb this cost, but someone got real creative and sprung this new way of thinking upon the public. Screw the developers in my opinion. They make plenty of money, they can pay for it.

[paulkellett]

TIF financing was created to jump start development in blighted areas. The idea being it was a way of making redevelopment which is more costly, more competitive with sprawl to undeveloped land. How it works is the Industrial Dev. Authority says hey this is a good project and issues bonds (think takes out a mortgage) on behalf of the developer and those bond payments (mortgage payments) are paid by the property taxes on the developed property. This community says that the taxing bodies will receive all the old tax value taxes and 1/3 (35%) of the increased value revenue for 20 years the other 2 thirds is used to pay off the bonds (mortgage) Win /Win? Well, lets look closer. 2,000 homes, the developer says this will be done over 28 years. 20 year bonds, 8 year roll out. That is 250 homes sold /year. Well, as a Realtor, I asked myself just how realistic is a yearly average of 250 homes priced $220K to $380K? Funny I should look up such a thing, but according to the MLS system last year in all of Adams County, Realtors sold (homes over $200K on less than 2 acres)... 248 TOTAL. So, this development will do better than all Realtors combined in all of Adams County. Next, TIF financing will pay for the sewer system - Sorry GMA (who just expanded to handle new development) Club house, roads etc. Now, there are 55+ communities in Adams County, but they are not selling anywhere close to 250 homes. Maybe if they had more amenities paid with non-paid property tax dollars??? I am against the precedent, feel it is against the free market system, and feel it is a very dangerous precedent. What if Lake Heritage decided dam repairs were needed? Home owners would normally pay, but hey, why not TIF financing, it will stop blight by not having the lake drained and property values plummeting? I can think of hundreds of "worthy" projects, but the idea is that we all get taxed the same. No picking winners and losers, something Moose ( and I ) have griped about for quite a while now. I am not against the project, I am against tax money paying for somebody's club house, sewer system etc. It is not just the other 55+ communities that will be placed at a severe disadvantage, it will be every builder in the area as they have to pay for all the things that TIF is (taxpayer money) picking up the tab for. Some retirees do not buy in a community.
So to summarize, This project is going to use bonds that cannot be repaid on the schedule that the developer claims, to give that developer an unfair advantage in the market. If the development was a sound financial idea, then banks would finance it. That simple.

[davew]

Feb 7, 2014 16:17:30 GMT -5 paulkellett said:

If the development was a sound financial idea, then banks would finance it. That simple.

Bingo.

[lifesaver]

I understand what moose and paulkellet are saying and for the most part agree.  The sticking point which is causing me to ease up a bit on the TIF financing for the project is the potential benefit this project will have for our community and Adams County over time.  If the entire project of the community or the proposed shopping center hinges on acquiring TIF financing and it's turned down we lose....again. 

Regardless, neither the development, or the shopping center will be a get rich quick scheme.

[Alex Oreilly]

I guess I'm not understanding what TIF is?, I thought it was when the Developer pays his taxes part of tha money goes towards repaying the bond, however long that takes instead all of the tax money going right to the Townships, County and School all at once.

I agree with Lifesaver with the economy the way it is, this just might be the best way to get projects going again. The Developers aren't making money as soon as the shopping center opens so this system isn't going to make them money as soon as they open either.

Moose, Paul, I kinds get your point but in today's economy, we have to think outside of the box.

[Fire Marshal Bill]

I would rather see the funding go to the shopping center. This will bring jobs during the construction period, and employment in the stores once finished. Hopefully, it will draw shoppers to the Gettysburg area that would otherwise be going to Hanover, Chambersburg, or Frederick. This would help other businesses in town, and possibly attract new businesses.

This 55 plus development will bring a few jobs during construction, and very few after construction is complete. This development is situated were I am sure many of the residents will be going to Hanover to do their shopping rather than coming to Gettysburg, since Hanover really has much more to offer, and will not be that much more of a drive.

And I agree with Paul, I don’t see the developer selling 250 homes a year.

The developer will be the one making the big money, let him/her invest the big bucks. Why should I (or may taxes) help finance an operation for someone else to get rich?

[Venter]

But, isn't this STILL in STRABAN Township?

The part of their name that's ironic, is "BAN"
As long as Wally Davis has a say, I don't think we'll be seeing any groundbreaking soon.

[lifesaver]

Feb 8, 2014 9:34:17 GMT -5 Fire Marshal Bill said:

This 55 plus development will bring a few jobs during construction, and very few after construction is complete. This development is situated were I am sure many of the residents will be going to Hanover to do their shopping rather than coming to Gettysburg, since Hanover really has much more to offer, and will not be that much more of a drive.

And I agree with Paul, I don’t see the developer selling 250 homes a year.

I can see your point as well.  If I am already in town I will frequent the in town stores, if not Chambersburg is not that much farther away and I have a mall, a Walmart, Target, Kohl's, Giant, Weis and lest we forget a Chipotle!  And to boot, they are currently building a BJ's! I agree, Hanover is not that far away and has a lot more to offer.  So, where will Adams County get the most bang for the buck?  I hope that this is a consideration the group is thinking about when they make their decision about the TIF financing. We aren't a blighted area by any means, but we are a stagnant area when it comes to progress and thinking out of the box for economic progress.  I am not against the development by any means, but I think FMB is right. The target area for these folks are metropolitan area retirees.  Some of the small shops may be attractive to them, and the grocery stores possibly, but that isn't where they're going to spend their money the majority of the time.  They will go where the larger shopping centers are.  250 homes a year may be an unrealistic goal, but I don't think it is that far off the mark.  Just as Hanover won't be that far for them to shop, the lower cost of living and beautiful area to live will make Balt/DC area a close place to visit.

[Fire Marshal Bill]

NO LS I am not against grown and development. After all, with my current occupation, that is what pays the bills. If there is no growth and development, I have no work. No work no income.

I just have questions as to how beneficial it is for Adams County to continue to be a bedroom community for people who will work and shop someplace else.

I thing the priority should be to bring jobs to the area. I would like to see more development in the "Industrial" park, with actual industry. I would like to see the elevator plant have someone in it that will provide jobs for people.

If we can't actually bring jobs in the way of industry, then lets provide shopping opportunities for the people who live here, and for the possible new residents, so we can keep them in the community to do business.

[lifesaver]

Feb 8, 2014 14:49:24 GMT -5 Fire Marshal Bill said:

NO LS I am not against grown and development. After all, with my current occupation, that is what pays the bills. If there is no growth and development, I have no work. No work no income.

I just have questions as to how beneficial it is for Adams County to continue to be a bedroom community for people who will work and shop someplace else.

I thing the priority should be to bring jobs to the area. I would like to see more development in the "Industrial" park, with actual industry. I would like to see the elevator plant have someone in it that will provide jobs for people.

If we can't actually bring jobs in the way of industry, then lets provide shopping opportunities for the people who live here, and for the possible new residents, so we can keep them in the community to do business.

I know you aren't against growth, FMB.  I agree with your point about shopping somewhere else.  These people will be active and mobile, they won't need to rely on bus service (yet ANOTHER topic for discussion) to shop.  They won't think twice about driving to Wegman's in Mechanicsburg.  I would agree that the proposed shopping center should be on the same track as the proposed development.  In any case, those families that move into that development WILL be paying taxes, and 2000 more homes (over years) will be a pretty significant chunk of change for tax revenue.  The difference between industry, the shopping center, and the proposed development is that they are here, and now, and tangible.  There would still be room for industry in the area in Straban Twp. slated for that.  The trick is getting industry attracted to our area.  Just as we can't place all of our eggs in the tourism basket anymore, I think we should at least consider the benefits of what is here and now, rather than let the preservationists  and land conservationists continue to chip away at available properties and we are left with nothing.

[Venter]

We all realize that there is nothing here for our KIDS to stay for.
Offering jobs for $8.00 per hour is not going to keep them here.

Gettysburg has really missed the mark there.
While we are very strong on INVITING Kids to enjoy our town, there is nothing here to keep them here.

Parents wanting a nice place to have their children grow up, would do well to move to Gettysburg (as we did).
But what they will have to realize, is that their children will have to MOVE AWAY in order to make a living.

That means that our kids will not be around as much.
That means that Grandchildren will not be around as much.
And that can make for a pretty lonely 55+ Development, in my opinion.

So will we see an insurgence of Services dedicated to an influx of "Older Folks"?
I mean... anything that will pay over minimum wage!? 

[lifesaver]

Feb 8, 2014 17:31:06 GMT -5 Venter said:

So will we see an insurgence of Services dedicated to an influx of "Older Folks"?
I mean... anything that will pay over minimum wage!? 

Well.......there are hospitals and doctor's offices    But watch who you're calling "Older Folks" there Buster.

[ravensgirl21]

DISCOVERY GETTYSBURG:  This much needed development in Adams County will be a boon for economic recovery. Not just that it is a 55+ for seniors, but more important  that it brings new faces to our County. Many seniors 55+ will have interest in opening their own small businesses. Shopping local, eating local, supporting local events. This new generation of seniors 55+ are innovative, energetic and will be active in the community.
Discovery Gettysburg brings,  opportunity for over 2600 local jobs. Millions in revenue targeting the School district, which ultimately helps with taxes. Our County is so over-taxed and no end in sight. GASD has the obligation to review the facts as they are presented and make a real decision based on the facts, not conjecture! They are elected officials which hold Adams Co. future tax increase in their hands.! Hear this again, please, they hold our future tax increases in their hands!
  All 3 taxing bodies have an obligation to work for the best interest in Adams Co.  We ask that Adams Co, Straban Twp and GASD move forward and bring this great opportunity to Adams Co.
We are so far behind in development and growth it is not even funny anymore. My husband has no choice but to drive all the way into N Va and D C where the jobs are. Before going on, in an earlier post,  about bringing yet another "bedroom community" into our area, why not see the facts? Since when are 55+ inactive and unproductive? Us "BABY BOOMERS"  have done our time raising our families and supporting them. A community that will be a great social network for all who have so much in common.
 This new community will be built over the next 10 years, with projected 200 homes per year.  (not 20. @ 250 homes per year, as written in an earlier post)  Providing a clubhouse, performing arts, pool, beautiful homes at median price range including townhomes, single family homes. Take a look at Taneytown Md development Carroll Vista. 200 homes all sold! "If you build it they will come". A realtor pointed out the sluggish sales of homes in our area. First and foremost many of the homes need upgrades and serious improvements which those seeking to move to our area are not looking to invest in at this economic rate the nation is experiencing. Many are just leaving because the assessments and school taxes have increased so much it is no longer affordable to remain.  Secondly, a development such as Discovery Gettysburg will in itself sell itself based on the ammenities, the beautiful area, the local history and opportunities it will provide.

Re TIF: There is no danger of loss and burden on the taxpayers by the developer asking for TIF.This funding plays an all important role in helping developers bring economic relief to areas that are underdeveloped.  Please do your research. A meeting is scheduled on Feb 24th at 7 pm, for all those who want to learn more about TIF in detail. The pros and cons will be discussed and open for discussion.....details below:

 It is true those who come from neighboring Md who choose to live in the community will not have their hard earned retirement at risk, since Pa tax law provides exemption. Why should any of us?  Retirees have DONE THEIR TIME!
The fact that Discovery Gettysburg stands to provide over 2600 new jobs, millions in revenue, drawing more interest from business entrepeneurs and most important school tax relief! This development will not add one student to the school body, yet will instead support it. Adams business and residents should demand all 3 taxing bodies support this! Are we not tired of increased taxes? Are we not tired of the stalemate of "slower than a turtle "growth and opportunity? Our schools are filling up, becoming over populated. We need the pro growth support from Adams residents and business owners to be in favor with the developers. Moving forward for progress! Or, do we again let others speak for us and watch the milk spill out of the carton, again, and again...."Don't cry over spilt milk", if you do nothing!
Tell our elected board members and officials, local government, to support growth!
Discovery Gettysburg is a growth opportunity for Adams Co.
If you want to come hear the facts, see the exciting, beautiful  plans for development, hear the developer explain the issues of TIF and any concerns you may still have, please come to this meeting:

ALL BUSINESS OWNERS and RESIDENTS of Adams County in support of opportunity and growth: YOU ARE INVITED!!

Feb 24 th 7 pm Mon. The Links at Gettysburg,  meeting in the Clubhouse,  601 Mason Dixon Rd. If you support growth, jobs, economic relief you do NOT want to miss this meeting! Refreshments will be provided along with wine and beer. Bring your friends and business aquaintances.

[zapman]

The greater good for the community should be the primary details. TIF is a way to help developers fund improvements and such as a way to build in underdeveloped areas.Your taxes will not increase to fund this! Gettysburg has not had much growth such as Hanover, since I moved up here in 1998. The outlets and hotels along with Battlefield Harley Davidson and Gateway movies have been a great thing. There is no Lowes or Home Depot and surely we need a larger Walmart and decent competitive shop like Target. I understand all 3 taxing bodies must jump on board with the Discovery Gettysburg Developer re the TIF. Hopefully they will represent the majority voices of the residents and business owners. I believe the majority residents here are wanting to move forward with opportunities. Jobs, and revenue. No MORE TAX increases. Ours went up from $2300 to 5200! Which now has increased our mortgage by 300 a mo. No wonder we see more and more homes for sale. No one can afford to live under these tax increases here.

[davew]

Gettysburg hasn't had much growth? Are you kidding me? I moved away in 1999 and I can hardly recognize the area when I go back. If you want to see an area that hasn't developed and that is low income, come to the rust belt and go up toward brockway, pa, and drive around western and central new york.

If you want to build a development, you should front your own costs for needed infrastructure improvements and quiet down the cold sale "sale sale sale deal deal deal!!!" rhetoric in the invite.

Call me a cynic, but I somehow doubt there will be much discussion of the cons of TIF financing at the meeting. If anyone wants to see the cons, there's plenty on the internet.

Instead of talking about tax increases due to reassessments or sales, why not prove that your taking money through TIF financing is somehow going to reduce property taxes by getting it in legislation describing how and how much?

[150york]

Feb 10, 2014 12:16:06 GMT -5 ravensgirl21 said:

DISCOVERY GETTYSBURG:  This much needed development in Adams County will be a boon for economic recovery. Not just that it is a 55+ for seniors, but more important  that it brings new faces to our County. Many seniors 55+ will have interest in opening their own small businesses. Shopping local, eating local, supporting local events. This new generation of seniors 55+ are innovative, energetic and will be active in the community.
Discovery Gettysburg brings,  opportunity for over 2600 local jobs. Millions in revenue targeting the School district, which ultimately helps with taxes. Our County is so over-taxed and no end in sight. GASD has the obligation to review the facts as they are presented and make a real decision based on the facts, not conjecture! They are elected officials which hold Adams Co. future tax increase in their hands.! Hear this again, please, they hold our future tax increases in their hands!
  All 3 taxing bodies have an obligation to work for the best interest in Adams Co.  We ask that Adams Co, Straban Twp and GASD move forward and bring this great opportunity to Adams Co.
We are so far behind in development and growth it is not even funny anymore. My husband has no choice but to drive all the way into N Va and D C where the jobs are. Before going on, in an earlier post,  about bringing yet another "bedroom community" into our area, why not see the facts? Since when are 55+ inactive and unproductive? Us "BABY BOOMERS"  have done our time raising our families and supporting them. A community that will be a great social network for all who have so much in common.
 This new community will be built over the next 10 years, with projected 200 homes per year.  (not 20. @ 250 homes per year, as written in an earlier post)  Providing a clubhouse, performing arts, pool, beautiful homes at median price range including townhomes, single family homes. Take a look at Taneytown Md development Carroll Vista. 200 homes all sold! "If you build it they will come". A realtor pointed out the sluggish sales of homes in our area. First and foremost many of the homes need upgrades and serious improvements which those seeking to move to our area are not looking to invest in at this economic rate the nation is experiencing. Many are just leaving because the assessments and school taxes have increased so much it is no longer affordable to remain.  Secondly, a development such as Discovery Gettysburg will in itself sell itself based on the ammenities, the beautiful area, the local history and opportunities it will provide.

Re TIF: There is no danger of loss and burden on the taxpayers by the developer asking for TIF.This funding plays an all important role in helping developers bring economic relief to areas that are underdeveloped.  Please do your research. A meeting is scheduled on Feb 24th at 7 pm, for all those who want to learn more about TIF in detail. The pros and cons will be discussed and open for discussion.....details below:

 It is true those who come from neighboring Md who choose to live in the community will not have their hard earned retirement at risk, since Pa tax law provides exemption. Why should any of us?  Retirees have DONE THEIR TIME!
The fact that Discovery Gettysburg stands to provide over 2600 new jobs, millions in revenue, drawing more interest from business entrepeneurs and most important school tax relief! This development will not add one student to the school body, yet will instead support it. Adams business and residents should demand all 3 taxing bodies support this! Are we not tired of increased taxes? Are we not tired of the stalemate of "slower than a turtle "growth and opportunity? Our schools are filling up, becoming over populated. We need the pro growth support from Adams residents and business owners to be in favor with the developers. Moving forward for progress! Or, do we again let others speak for us and watch the milk spill out of the carton, again, and again...."Don't cry over spilt milk", if you do nothing!
Tell our elected board members and officials, local government, to support growth!
Discovery Gettysburg is a growth opportunity for Adams Co.
If you want to come hear the facts, see the exciting, beautiful  plans for development, hear the developer explain the issues of TIF and any concerns you may still have, please come to this meeting:

ALL BUSINESS OWNERS and RESIDENTS of Adams County in support of opportunity and growth: YOU ARE INVITED!!

Feb 24 th 7 pm Mon. The Links at Gettysburg,  meeting in the Clubhouse,  601 Mason Dixon Rd. If you support growth, jobs, economic relief you do NOT want to miss this meeting! Refreshments will be provided along with wine and beer. Bring your friends and business aquaintances.

[150york]

As a business owner, and one of the proud homeowners in the borough of Gettysburg, which by the way puts me in the 49% club that pays 100% of the borough taxes, I am definitely in favor of development that will reduce taxes. Especially if the development's occupants do not necessitate building more schools. The owners of these homes have a fair amount of discretionary money they will be spending in our community.

My business is located in Straban township. When the power plant construction was taking place my business experienced a nice increase in sales. Did I take the extra money and go to the Riviera for vacation? No! I reinvested the money locally by purchasing new equipment for our commercial kitchen, and installed a new heat plant and central air conditioning. That was quite a tidy sum.

If we don't increase the tax base all of us will keep paying more and more and more. Frankly I have had about as much fun paying taxes than I can stand. And if our elected officials don't get behind this development so we get some tax relief, lets un-elect them and elect people that have vision.

[ravensgirl21]

@supreme poster....as usual...negative outlook. BTW I have been around here most of my life. So far Gettysburg has bitten the hand that feeds them. What is unreconizable? The rt 30 strip of small shopping center? Walmart? The outlets and hotels as stated with movie theatre and Battlefield Harley Davidson are in fact the good news. I have seen the tower taken down that was revenue for the town which this town still owes the family over a million for. Businesses have closed, Boyds bear vacant. Where do you see an uprising of new homes? I am in agreement with 150york, if we do not increase the tax base all of us will pay more. How do you propose that get done without yet again shewing another developer away? We already lost the casino bid, we lost a water park just in couple years. Big business does not come here. Pella has been a great addition. Our elected officals in all 3 tax bases must do their jobs they were elected for and move toward solutions that work. head in the sand? Why not pull up and see the sunshine of possiblility?