How much will the fire tax really help? Just asking

[Fire Marshal Bill]

I’m wondering just how this fire tax will actually affect the income of the local departments.

It is said that the .25 mill tax will generate 2.27 million dollars, to be divided between 21 fire departments. This is just a bit over 108 thousand dollars per department. In most cases it isn’t close to the department operating budget, but it will be a big help.

Now I know it will get some money from those who don’t support the departments now with any kind of donation.

But I wonder about the people who are currently supporting the local fire departments, some supporting till it hurts.

I wonder how this fire tax will affect these people and their support of the local departments.

I for one currently donate more than this tax will generate from me to each of the three departments that will respond to my house, as well as to the department I belong to that does not respond to my location.

I’m not sure just how I will react yet. Will I say “I’m paying a fire tax, so screw making donations.” This will actually reduce the amount of money the departments will be getting from me.

Or will I say “OK, I’m paying $ 40 a year in fire tax, so I will deduct that from my donations”, thus making no difference in the fire department income.

And we now add the factor that some municipalities may not participate so those residents will still be getting a free ride.

[lifesaver]

Sept 2, 2013 6:52:58 GMT -5 Fire Marshal Bill said:

I’m wondering just how this fire tax will actually affect the income of the local departments.

It is said that the .25 mill tax will generate 2.27 million dollars, to be divided between 21 fire departments. This is just a bit over 108 thousand dollars per department. In most cases it isn’t close to the department operating budget, but it will be a big help.

Now I know it will get some money from those who don’t support the departments now with any kind of donation.

But I wonder about the people who are currently supporting the local fire departments, some supporting till it hurts.

I wonder how this fire tax will affect these people and their support of the local departments.

I for one currently donate more than this tax will generate from me to each of the three departments that will respond to my house, as well as to the department I belong to that does not respond to my location.

I’m not sure just how I will react yet. Will I say “I’m paying a fire tax, so screw making donations.” This will actually reduce the amount of money the departments will be getting from me.

Or will I say “OK, I’m paying $ 40 a year in fire tax, so I will deduct that from my donations”, thus making no difference in the fire department income.

And we now add the factor that some municipalities may not participate so those residents will still be getting a free ride.

FMB.  You've raised some good points.  And I have no doubt that some imbeciles in the county will do exactly what you say they will do.  And it will be narrow minded thinking like this that will eventually mean the demise of volunteer departments in the county IF we don't do something to change the mindset of those who think that way. The fire tax may just be the bandaid  to temporarily stop the bleeding if this mindset is allowed to continue and we can really listen to the screaming when we are taxed out the you know what for paid fire services.  As I said before, they won't know what they've got till it's gone.  As for me, I doubled my donation this year to our first due fire department, and also sent a smaller donation to the second due company.  And I will also gladly support a fire tax.  As for those municipalities who won't come on board?  Maybe they won't get as big a slice of the pie as the departments that do, and when that first due department goes under, and they realize that their homeowner's insurance premiums have skyrocketed then maybe they will understand, a little too late, how penny wise and pound foolish they were.

[Venter]

But FMB, remember that there will be more people paying that $40 per year.

[Numbers used are for easy math]
Let's say that 10% of 1,000 people give $100 per year to their fire departments - that would amount to 100 x 100 = $10,000 (probably a higher percentage than currently being donated).
But if 100% of the 1,000 people gave $40, there would be $40,000

So even if you previously gave $500 per year, that would be offset by the collective increase from 90% more people adding to the pool.
Your generosity (and greater-than-necessary burden) will be replaced by a fair share approach.

[Venter]

On another note...

Unfortunately, I am the guy who watches "Public Television" and listens to "NPR" and bitches about their Fundraisers whenever it interrupts my viewing/listening pleasure.

But, being the hypocrite that I am, I have never sent in a single dollar - but to put things in perspective, I've always felt bad about not doing so.
I continue to listen to, and watch the Programs, and you know what - even after YEARS of pleading and warning that "we would lose their services" - the programs remain on the air!
What is my point?
Actually, I don't know
"The sky is falling", "Wolf! Wolf!", "You'll Grow Hair on Your Palms!".

But then again, I don't think my house will ever burn down because I couldn't listen to "Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me!" or Click and Clack on "Car Talk"

I guess we don't look at Donating to Emergency Services in the manner we should.
I for one, hate to pay for insurance.
It is one of the most top-heavy forms of "Legalized Gambling".
"But when you need it, it's there".
True, but even when you DON'T need it, the bill is still there... 50 different insurance payments each month for something I may never need - like fire protection!

So instead of looking at the Emergency Services as "An Insurance Policy" maybe our mindset needs to be adjusted.
How do you do that?
I'm not sure, but there should be a Professional Fundraising Service that could do a better job of it than each local fire department trying fund-raisers that attract only a few locals, while the Volunteers bust their balls to bring in a few more bucks.
Hell, for all the effort, most volunteers could probably spend more time at WORK, and Donate some of their extra wages, rather than beg, borrow, and raffle for pittance.

If a Fire Truck came by with sirens blaring, like the Good Humor Man of old, I'd run out a few times a year to drop money in the buckets and shake some hands!
But if you're waiting for my check in the mail, or my credit card number... sorry - I'll probably be watching PBS!

[Fire Marshal Bill]

Venter, you are correct in that hopefully this tax will be paid by all, but as one or two of the articles I read indicate not all of the local municipalities will participate.

And most departments have modernized their solicitation methods over the years. I can remember a long time back when we used to go door to door asking for donations. We usually did this a week or so before the carnival and every fire truck that went out had a chicken crate on it. In the rural areas, the donation was often a chicken or two from the farmer, or a nice burlap sack of sweet corn. Immediately upon returning to the station, the chickens were killed and cleaned and boiled. The corn was husked, and cooked, then cut off the ear, and both were used for the chicken corn soup sold at the carnival.

Then I can remember weeks in the fire house folding request for donations, and stuffing envelopes, and putting address labels on them. These replaced the door to door visits, but I think the public appreciated the personal contact, because the donations dropped.

Then for a few years we would send the letters out, and two or three of our members would tally the donations that came in with the mailing list, and then we would go out and visit only those who did not send a donation. This of course caused some problems because some people would just put cash in the return envelope and no return address so they would get a visit. Some would simply say they had sent a donation, and others would donate a bit more the second time.

And you are very correct it is difficult to force yourself to “pay” for something you don’t ever expect to need or use. I maintain my house in a safe manner and respect the use of fire. I always pull the fire place screen or close the doors when I have a fire there. I clean my chimney twice a season when it is used.

I always make sure the grill is a safe distance from the house when I use it, and I never keep any flammable liquids in the house. I keep matches out of the reach of children (and I don’t trust myself much with them either). So why should I support the fire department to respond to the house of those careless who have no respect for their own safety.

[Venter]

In this day and age, you would imagine a way to request donations over the internet.
Of course, with that comes the fake internet requests and spam.
But then again, even door-to-door and mail operations have been faked over the years, so it's just another tool to try to use - not totally ignore because of "what MAY happen..."..

Does the County, or any individual Fire House have an Online Location to Donate to?
Maybe that's the way to go?
If it was a site that accepted Credit, Debit, and PayPal, and you could type in your address and pledge amount, and the monies would automatically go to the proper responders.

If it's a Legitimate Site, verified and advertised through the Local Papers, it seems like it would work.
Of course, just like our previous BoroVENT PayPal efforts, they'd probably fall through
But at least it doesn't COST anything besides a few dollars for a website.

Here's where I show my ignorance once again:
I don't even KNOW who my first responders are.
Maybe this is an Identity Problem that needs to be addressed!?

I know that when I call the Police, I will generally get the Cumberland Police responding to my home.
But, in eleven years, I have fortunately never needed the services of the fire department.

[Venter]

Once again, I'll mention this:
As this Region has become a more Suburban Mix, rather than just Rural, things have changed, while the Municipalities resist change.

What I mean by that is there is quite a mix of people from surrounding States and Regions that are USED to being taxed.
The difference here is that they try to SEPARATE the Taxes at the onset.
A Fire Tax, a Hotel Tax, a School Tax, EMS Tax, Income Tax, Real Estate Tax,  Boro Tax, Township Tax, State Tax, Federal Tax...

No WONDER politicians in places like Mount Joy and Straban are AFRAID to "Raise Taxes", because they "promised" they wouldn't when they were elected.
Charge a standard TAX across the board for each Municipality within the County.
Using the County as the "Umbrella" those funds would be dispersed as needed.

Straban gets away without using their own Police Force... because we ALL pay for it.
Mount Joy won't pay a fair share either... so we all pay for it.
These "Welfare Townships" need to be left without Services, until they pay up!
It seems morally reprehensible to restrict Emergency Services to anyone, but unless it becomes a "Pay-as-you-use" System, then it needs to be fair across board.
Like the Lottery... you've got to pay to play.
Unlike the State Lottery though, you don't really want to roll the dice and win the "Fire Lottery"

[Fire Marshal Bill]

For several years, because of my job, I had to claim Maryland as my residence, although I spend most of my off duty time in Pennsylvania. As I recall we only had property tax, income tax, and sales tax. I believe you pay sales tax on most everything in Maryland, and the income tax was easy. You calculated your state income tax and what you owed, and then added a percentage to that depending on what county you lived in and sent it to the state. The state then distributed the funds.

Property tax went through some changes while I was there. Originally the owner of the property paid the taxes and of course they included it in the rent for renters. But property taxes started to go up, and people who had two and three year leases may not have been paying the taxes, or if you signed a lease just before the taxes would go up, you made out. So at least Prince Georges County passed legislation that the renter was responsible for the property tax. I think this finally fell through though.

The one problem here in PA is that as you say, the taxes are identified in many cases. Every time you turn around you are getting some kind of tax bill.

I do like your idea of an internet pay program for donations, and will bring it up to my FD and see how they handle it.

As to what Fire Department serves you, I believe your insurance company would know for sure, because part of your insurance rating is the ISO rating the local fire department has. Someone with the exact same house as you may be paying more or less insurance on the same valued property because the local fire department may have a higher or lower ISO rating. But I believe both Fire and EMS service for you is Gettysburg.

Also you can stop in the various Fire Stations and they usually have a map up someplace that identifies their first due area.

[lifesaver]

Venter, a few years back we got a frantic knock on our door at 4 in the morning.  Our neighbor's house was on fire.  The fire department was there within minutes and the house was saved, although there was quite a bit of damage the home was able to be restored.  It was very sobering to see the damage that was done in just a few minutes.  And it was because of the quick response and training of our volunteer department that the house was saved.  When you witness it first hand you find a new appreciation of our volunteers. 

[Venter]

Sept 2, 2013 15:43:04 GMT -5 Fire Marshal Bill said:

... Also you can stop in the various Fire Stations and they usually have a map up someplace that identifies their first due area.

Or they could have a Central Internet location that would identify the same thing without having to go to the Fire House.
Or maybe they already have one?
Can you check on that for us?

Maybe something we can sign up for, like an "Email Newsletter" from the Stations once in awhile.
This is the 2KTeens, information is EASY to disperse.
Information is also a form of advertising.
If we see the photos of our community fire personnel, then we'd feel a closer bond.
I personally knew quite a few Police and Firemen in my hometown, and it was a lot larger than Gettysburg.

Here, I know most of the Police by face, and many by name.
But I only know one FireFighter, and a former Chief by name or sight.
Maybe there needs to be a Campaign by the Gettysburg Times:
"Getting to Know Your EMS"
Note: Do NOT include a "Who needs a kick in the pants section!"
We often see Police Officers around and about.
They are not always "Responding" like the Fire Personnel are.
We're never allowed to get close to fire action, and they don't drive around the County and wave as they pass by.
It is the nature of their job that keeps them apart from the rest of us.
The only indication that they are "in the service" may be a Tee Shirt with their VFD on it, and even then, we can't be sure if they are really a responder or a supporter.
There is no "Uniform Uniform" if you get what I mean.
No name tag or badge to identify them as such - at least none that I know of.
Once again, it's an "Identity Crisis",
and when there is a story in the paper about the Volunteers, it's usually about the competition between VFDs for recognition by a Township, or fighting over territory.

As cool as it sounds, the days of Chicken and Corn donations are yesteryear.
If I offered a chicken to a Fireman, he'd probably check the psych wards in the area for an escapee
"We saved his life, and he thinks he can pay with two chickens, 3 dozen ears of corn, a night with his wife, and a 1/2 cord of wood!
He MUST be crazy if he thinks his wife is worth more than $20 tops!"

[Venter]

Sept 2, 2013 18:39:45 GMT -5 lifesaver said:

Venter, a few years back we got a frantic knock on our door at 4 in the morning.  Our neighbor's house was on fire.  The fire department was there within minutes and the house was saved, although there was quite a bit of damage the home was able to be restored.  It was very sobering to see the damage that was done in just a few minutes.  And it was because of the quick response and training of our volunteer department that the house was saved.  When you witness it first hand you find a new appreciation of our volunteers. 

Lifesaver,
Please don't get me wrong!
Nothing I've written about Volunteers or Professionals has been denigrating, or intended to be Negative in any way.
If it appears that way, then I do apologize.

I am just expressing my Impressions of the EMS processes, as I perceive it and experience it.
Again, it may be due to identity failures and PR.
Maybe the days of calling themselves "Volunteers" is passe.
The mindset is "If you are not getting paid, then you are not as good as a 'professional' ".
Redefine your roles, become "Responders" or "... Something else!?"

You don't need to convince me of their dedication and resolve - I've seen it in action, just not on a first-hand basis (meaning, I didn't need the services).
I wouldn't want to do their job, and we are lucky that there is a breed of people out there that thrive on that adrenalin.
I'm not one of them

[Venter]

Fire And Emergency ResponderS = FEARS

I tried Fire And Response Teams, but didn't think the name was fitting

[lifesaver]

Sept 3, 2013 8:02:45 GMT -5 Venter said:

Fire And Emergency ResponderS = FEARS

I tried Fire And Response Teams, but didn't think the name was fitting

Not quite Venter.  Actually that spells FAERS. But that still might work.  Did anyone see the smoke from that barn "faer" the other day?

[lifesaver]

Sept 2, 2013 19:22:48 GMT -5 Venter said:

Sept 2, 2013 18:39:45 GMT -5 lifesaver said:

Venter, a few years back we got a frantic knock on our door at 4 in the morning.  Our neighbor's house was on fire.  The fire department was there within minutes and the house was saved, although there was quite a bit of damage the home was able to be restored.  It was very sobering to see the damage that was done in just a few minutes.  And it was because of the quick response and training of our volunteer department that the house was saved.  When you witness it first hand you find a new appreciation of our volunteers. 

Lifesaver,
Please don't get me wrong!
Nothing I've written about Volunteers or Professionals has been denigrating, or intended to be Negative in any way.
If it appears that way, then I do apologize.

I am just expressing my Impressions of the EMS processes, as I perceive it and experience it.
Again, it may be due to identity failures and PR.
Maybe the days of calling themselves "Volunteers" is passe.
The mindset is "If you are not getting paid, then you are not as good as a 'professional' ".
Redefine your roles, become "Responders" or "... Something else!?"

You don't need to convince me of their dedication and resolve - I've seen it in action, just not on a first-hand basis (meaning, I didn't need the services).
I wouldn't want to do their job, and we are lucky that there is a breed of people out there that thrive on that adrenalin.
I'm not one of them

No Venter, I did not take it that way at all. You're good.

[lifesaver]

Venter, social media (Facebook) and the internet I think pretty much covers all the departments

Just a few:
911-photography.smugmug.com/Adams-County-Pennsylvania (also on Facebook)

www.gettysburgfd.com/Home.html  (also on Facebook)

I think if you look up any of the departments you will find they probably have a web site and probably Facebook too in most cases. Lots of interesting stuff!  Did you know that Gettysburg has a small museum at it's station?  I remember going there with my son a few years ago, I think for a school outing.  Pretty neat!

As far as getting to know your volunteers you need only participate in the various fundraisers the companies have throughout the year, the Fireman's Carnivals, Bingo, Raffles, Dinners etc.  If you ever go to a seafood feast at Buchanan Valley and come away hungry it's your own damn fault.

[lifesaver]

The Ocean Pines Md. volunteer fire department has a novel fundraising idea that they have been doing for a few years. I think how it works is that the department buys the building materials and a local contractor donates his time to build a house in Ocean Pines. They then sell 200 tickets at $100 a pop and draw the winner on Labor Day. Winning ticket wins the house! These are small homes but very nice, three bedrooms, two baths, open floor plan, screened in porch and one car garage! Small lots, but would be a perfect getaway home. Every year I am tempted to buy a ticket but decided this year that my local department needed it more. When I went with my SIL to buy her ticket I asked the fireman selling the tickets if they were faced with the problems some of the local companies in PA are. He said no, they weren't, and my SIL told me that in Ocean Pines the residents are very supportive and donate generously to the department. Oh, and their taxes are much lower than ours in PA!

[Venter]

Sept 3, 2013 8:36:53 GMT -5 lifesaver said:

Sept 3, 2013 8:02:45 GMT -5 Venter said:

Fire And Emergency ResponderS = FEARS

I tried Fire And Response Teams, but didn't think the name was fitting

Not quite Venter.  Actually that spells FAERS. But that still might work.  Did anyone see the smoke from that barn "faer" the other day?

What can I say?
Okay how about Fire, Emergency, And Response Services?

[Venter]

Why did the Three Wise Men have ashes on their Cloaks?
Because they had just come from Afar.

Works better in Balmer, Merlin hon.

[HoneyBadger]

My post disappeared? Cool.

[Alex Oreilly]

Sept 3, 2013 8:55:40 GMT -5 lifesaver said:

Venter, social media (Facebook) and the internet I think pretty much covers all the departments

Just a few:
911-photography.smugmug.com/Adams-County-Pennsylvania (also on Facebook)

www.gettysburgfd.com/Home.html  (also on Facebook)

I think if you look up any of the departments you will find they probably have a web site and probably Facebook too in most cases. Lots of interesting stuff!  Did you know that Gettysburg has a small museum at it's station?  I remember going there with my son a few years ago, I think for a school outing.  Pretty neat!

As far as getting to know your volunteers you need only participate in the various fundraisers the companies have throughout the year, the Fireman's Carnivals, Bingo, Raffles, Dinners etc.  If you ever go to a seafood feast at Buchanan Valley and come away hungry it's your own damn fault.



Also on Facebook is Adams County Fire Blotter, reporting all fires and accidents in the County, kind of like listenting to your fire monitor.

[Alex Oreilly]

I"m okay with having a fire tax put into place but how do we hold the Fire Companies and County accountable for how they distribute/handle the money given to them?

[Fire Marshal Bill]

Sept 3, 2013 16:26:11 GMT -5 Alex Oreilly said:

I"m okay with having a fire tax put into place but how do we hold the Fire Companies and County accountable for how they distribute/handle the money given to them?

I have heard several theories as to how the money will be dispersed. I understand that the funds will be forwarded to the county for control, and at given times, the fire departments will submit bills for reimbursement.

What will the dispersment be based one, not sure yet.

Someone suggested basing it on the number of calls responded to. Is that fare? The company that only responds to a few hundred calls a year has basically the same expenses as the one that responds to several hundred, except for maybe fuel. But then again that department only responding to a few calls, maybe be traveling further and spending more time on the scene.

I also understand that the funds can only be spend on "fire protection". Now would that allow a department to repair the heating system or roof of their building, since it is protecting the apparatus and other equipment?

I am glad I will not be involved in that, as I am sure there will be many strong arguments till the rules are firmly established.

[gburger717]

I am not trying to down the fire companys but I think this tax will do one allow the fire companys to quit fund raising they will say "shit why do it when we have money being pumped in threw the tax" which i think is a BAD thing.

Honeslty out here there responce times are a lot slower then I am use to in the city. It took 18 minutes after a call about a brush fire for them to show up! if my house was on fire 18 minutes means its burnt to the ground!!!!

[lifesaver]

Oct 13, 2013 10:42:50 GMT -5 gburger717 said:

I am not trying to down the fire companys but I think this tax will do one allow the fire companys to quit fund raising they will say "shit why do it when we have money being pumped in threw the tax" which i think is a BAD thing.

Honeslty out here there responce times are a lot slower then I am use to in the city. It took 18 minutes after a call about a brush fire for them to show up! if my house was on fire 18 minutes means its burnt to the ground!!!!

The fire tax does not mean that they will need to stop fundraising.  It will mean that they will not have to think about fund raising 24/7 like most companies do now.  I believe if you ask firefighters they will tell you the same thing.  Also, some of the fundraisers are good moneymakers for the department, but they are not as profitable as they have been in the past.  I believe I saw in the paper that the carnival in Gettysburg used to generate about $75K for the department.  This year they made 50K.

Of course their response times may be slower than you are used to in the city.  In the city they most likely have paid departments which staff firefighters 24/7 for immediate response to a call.  Volunteer departments, for the most part don't have staff in house 24/7.  They most likely have to respond from work or home which would slow their response time.  And also why for some calls (such as house fires) multiple companies are called to increase the number of volunteers that are available to respond until they find out exactly what they are dealing with.  And yes, if a fire is "working" (real fire), 18 minutes could mean your house is gone.  If a fire "flashes" you could have a lot of damage within minutes, and not even a paid department Johnny on the spot would make a difference.

[Venter]

Maybe if they didn't have to do Fundraising, it would give them more Time and Incentive to take more Fire-Fighting Classes that are required of them.
It may also allow them to have some time at the Stations where they don't have to worry about being asked to "Work the fundraiser this Saturday" or "Grab another stack of Raffle Tickets".

The Social Aspect of the Volunteers could be enhanced by just hanging out at the Station.
The more people hanging around, the faster they'd get an Engine out - fully manned.
Just thinking out loud here... never hung around a Fire Station to see how it actually would work.