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Post by paulkellett on Feb 27, 2014 8:48:58 GMT -5
First, this discussion has always been about TIF financing, as I understand it, the developer has all the approvals in place and does not need to ply me ( or anyone else) with free food and drinks to get started, so it does not matter whether I am pro-discovery or not. (honestly, I could care either way- as I do not think it either a boon nor a bust) But lets address some of the points of pro TIF. 1. Construction jobs- Yeah, but they better last only 8 years and not 20, or the bond will not be repaid. 2. Other permanent jobs- well, will these jobs require outlays by the local government to accommodate? Will these jobs be high paying, you know the kind that get our kids to want to move back after college for? From the description given, I think most of them will be low paying service sector jobs that often require gov. help to raise a family on. 3. How do you divide up the costs of local government? Police and jails are not funded by those who utilize their services. I'll be the first to say it, criminals do NOT pay their own way in taxes. Likewise, the person who asks you "do you want fries with that?" does not either. Hence I question the long term value of these permanent jobs. 4. Lehman Brothers, Countrywide mortgage, Wachovia Bank, AIG - all had great track records until the feces hit the HVAC. Saying that Symphony knows what it is doing when they say they will DOUBLE the number of homes sold in the county over $220,000. requires a level of faith that I only get when I stay at the open bar a little too long.
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Post by lifesaver on Feb 27, 2014 9:58:45 GMT -5
First, this discussion has always been about TIF financing, as I understand it, the developer has all the approvals in place and does not need to ply me ( or anyone else) with free food and drinks to get started, so it does not matter whether I am pro-discovery or not. (honestly, I could care either way- as I do not think it either a boon nor a bust) But lets address some of the points of pro TIF. 1. Construction jobs- Yeah, but they better last only 8 years and not 20, or the bond will not be repaid. 2. Other permanent jobs- well, will these jobs require outlays by the local government to accommodate? Will these jobs be high paying, you know the kind that get our kids to want to move back after college for? From the description given, I think most of them will be low paying service sector jobs that often require gov. help to raise a family on. 3. How do you divide up the costs of local government? Police and jails are not funded by those who utilize their services. I'll be the first to say it, criminals do NOT pay their own way in taxes. Likewise, the person who asks you "do you want fries with that?" does not either. Hence I question the long term value of these permanent jobs. 4. Lehman Brothers, Countrywide mortgage, Wachovia Bank, AIG - all had great track records until the feces hit the HVAC. Saying that Symphony knows what it is doing when they say they will DOUBLE the number of homes sold in the county over $220,000. requires a level of faith that I only get when I stay at the open bar a little too long. From what I understand about the project, and the place I've lived my entire life I'd like to address a few of your points: 1. Not sure where you are coming up with that information. 2. You are assuming that all of our kids want to go to college after high school. Having a college degree doesn't entitle you to a high paying job. Do you know how many college graduates, not only in Gettysburg, but all over are taking jobs that include the well rehearsed catch phrase "Do you want fries with that"? Do you know how many graduates who are lucky enough to find a job in their field are in entry level positions that don't even begin to help cover the 100K+ student loans a lot of these students have to pay back? Unless they are fortunate enough to have mommy or daddy foot the bill, that is. I am a college graduate from a college similar in size and price to Gettysburg. I was fortunate enough to land a job here, in my field, that I have had for many years. I have colleagues who do the same job that I do (and very well I will say) that have an associate degree from HACC for 1/3 the cost. I encourage anyone thinking about college to start off at HACC simply because of the cost savings. My son had no desire to go to college. I supported that, only asked that he go somewhere for some post secondary education He went to a trade school and is working here, supporting himself, and recently bought a house. A boy in my son's graduating class was the first in his family to complete high school. Simply put, I don't place the value of a person on a college education. I place it on the desire to work and a good work ethic. 3. They are building houses, not prisons. Prisons are overcrowded now, mostly with nonviolent drug offenders. Focusing on this issue and changing our laws concerning these nonviolent offenders I believe will be the impetus to help stop prison overcrowding, and saving our tax dollars for violent offenders that are a danger to society. 4. No shit. That's the whole reason that TIF financing is requested now. So, you think that we should ignore the track record of this developer who has 40 years of experience in 55+ communities, or other developers who have had similar successful projects over the years all over the country? Do you think that this developer on a whim said, "Hey, look at this big plot of empty land, let's put a development there!"
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Post by Venter on Feb 27, 2014 11:58:51 GMT -5
Disclaimer: I'm am literally Ignorant when it comes to Financing, or Money Matters... just ask Debi Actually, I'm relatively ignorant on MANY issues, which is why I don't claim to be an Expert on ANY of this shit. BUT, I do read enough, and study enough, AND listen enough to become Relatively Educated on the Issues. Funny this should be called a TIF. In Graphics terms, a "TIFF" is a much larger, more complex, and useable File than the common "JPG" you are all familiar with. In Language terms, a "TIFF" is "a petty quarrel, esp. one between friends or lovers." In my terms, it means - "This Is Frustrating"I mentioned at the Meeting that I considered myself "Half-Educated", but I'm going to push that to 75% Educated (despite what you say ), and we all know that there are MANY around who are MORE Educated, and FAR Less Educated. With that said... It doesn't necessarily mean that EITHER is MORE or LESS Correct about the Issues confronting us. And, it's not always a Black & White Issue - there will most likely be a need for Compromise. I, myself, will probably jump back and forth over the fence, until I possibly land on one side or the other. And if history tells me anything, my final position will probably be "Nuts-Caught-in-the-Middle".
Hmmm, sounds like a nice name for our group! NUTS IN THE MIDDLE!
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Post by Venter on Feb 27, 2014 12:15:16 GMT -5
Another Question/Comment: We ALL know that in order to receive a simple loan, you need show that you have the money, in order to borrow in the first place. Well, USUALLY, you ask for a loan because you DON'T have the money.
In a Utopian World, Adams County (or any entity) would see the need for Development, and say "We will take care of the Infrastructure. We'll provide the Roads and Utilities to get you started on your way!" Eventually, your Residents/Businesses/Factories will provide taxes to offset those costs and refill the coffers.
But this is not Utopia - it's Gettysburg! The whole STATE is built on the Premise of Commonwealth, so why is there so much more "Common" than "Wealth"? There are SO Many Factions, and there is SO much infighting, especially at this Level - Counties; Townships; Boroughs; Wards; Neighborhoods; Individuals. I actually believe it is by DESIGN to keep each group at the others' throats. If there is no Common Cause, then there is no Progress.
Maybe "Discovery Gettysburg" or the "Gettysburg Crossing" (WalMart) Projects are NOT the "best thing since sliced bread"... But you've got to admit that being offered a decent LOAF of bread is better than the current economic situation in the region. I don't care if it's sliced - just tear me off a chunk!
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Post by paulkellett on Feb 27, 2014 13:19:24 GMT -5
Lifesaver, my point was not to argue over education and the pro's and cons of a college education, nor the reasons for prison overcrowding. My point was that the developer argues that there is "no cost" to the local governments to have these new residents, it simply is not true. Likewise, to pay back the bond with the property tax increase in 28 years, the houses have to be completed to be taxed and have someone living in them to pay the taxes. If the construction drags on for twenty years, the taxes will not have increased and no repayment of the bond will have occurred. The way the bond works is that 2/3 of the taxes on the house pay the bond for 20 years, and the bond is NOT insured it is "guaranteed" by the developer, which means that if the developer has no money the assets of the developer are seized to pay the bond holders. For this to work, the homes have to be sold on time, as the bond money is borrowed and spent and the creditors will want paid. So you can argue all the other stuff, but anyone answer this question, What happens to the community (and the bond) if the homes do not sell?
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Post by Alex Oreilly on Feb 27, 2014 19:27:50 GMT -5
Lifesaver, my point was not to argue over education and the pro's and cons of a college education, nor the reasons for prison overcrowding. My point was that the developer argues that there is "no cost" to the local governments to have these new residents, it simply is not true. Likewise, to pay back the bond with the property tax increase in 28 years, the houses have to be completed to be taxed and have someone living in them to pay the taxes. If the construction drags on for twenty years, the taxes will not have increased and no repayment of the bond will have occurred. The way the bond works is that 2/3 of the taxes on the house pay the bond for 20 years, and the bond is NOT insured it is "guaranteed" by the developer, which means that if the developer has no money the assets of the developer are seized to pay the bond holders. For this to work, the homes have to be sold on time, as the bond money is borrowed and spent and the creditors will want paid. So you can argue all the other stuff, but anyone answer this question, What happens to the community (and the bond) if the homes do not sell? Answer hopefully, The Developer will need to figure that out because the investors holding those bonds will want payment on those bonds and with TIF financing it all comes back to the developer to pay those bonds, so they could restructure the bonds or bring in new investors or whatever they come up with but one thing they know they can't do is go to the Township or County and say you need to pay the bill. But I think that this Developer has his stuff together and will have no problem selling these homes and staying on the right track. And from my understanding the Owner of The Preserves is for the project because it brings more people to the area looking to build, one project can feed off the other project including The Gettysburg Crossings development. And as for the Developer having Refreshments out for the meetings is a standard any type of meeting like this has.
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Dexter
Supreme Poster
Posts: 261
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Post by Dexter on Feb 27, 2014 20:07:24 GMT -5
Oh that is precious LS. SO, if this thing doesn't go as hoped, than this wonderful developer who does such a wonderful development will bring in another investor "or whatever". How about if that "or whatever" is file bankruptcy? OR he sales it to another developer? And then your wonderful development gets overseen by someone with another "vision"? Again, why does he need TIF?
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Post by Venter on Feb 27, 2014 21:12:01 GMT -5
Quick Answer: A TIF; A Grant; A Loan; A Gift... Why should anyone refuse ANY of them if they are made available? How unfair is it that Joe Blow got a Home Improvement Loan, and I couldn't? Good for Joe - the system works for him. Would I be pissed? ... only if there was something improper going on to secure his loan over mine. If he received preferential treatment, or selective process - fuck him. But if he plays the game the way it is supposed to be played - then more power to him. If this Development could get a Loan, or even a Grant, and then default, would the outcome be any different? If it fails, it fails. The County doesn't foot the bill any more or any less if he defaults on a loan, or a TIFF, or a grant. Nothing is 100% Guaranteed - even when it's 100% guaranteed. A permanent Marker is NOT permanent. The Titanic was NOT unsinkable. I don't believe anyone involved in the project is out to defraud anyone, and I doubt very much, that they are going into all of this just in order to shut it down 10 years from now. If a TIF is a TOOL to get the project off the ground, if it is a legal means to offset your expenses for a few years, if it is positive in any way, then why not allow it? Years ago, the State allowed casinos, and we missed out. Are they doing as well as they figured they would - not that I know of. But even if this project, or the next, or the next, can bring in a positive amount of income and investment to our region - why fight it so adamantly? If the County or Schools ONLY make $250,000 in a year, when they were "promised" $1,000,000 - do we NOT take the quarter million? I think I'd rather take the chance on growth, instead of holding on to every patch of grass in Gettysburg. The property is bringing in about $7,500 in taxes a year right now. And if it bothers you that the owners will make a lot of money from this project... So WHAT!? The last time I looked, that is the reason people make investments.
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Dexter
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Post by Dexter on Feb 28, 2014 6:27:35 GMT -5
Quick Answer: A TIF; A Grant; A Loan; A Gift... Why should anyone refuse ANY of them if they are made available? How unfair is it that Joe Blow got a Home Improvement Loan, and I couldn't? Good for Joe - the system works for him. Would I be pissed? ... only if there was something improper going on to secure his loan over mine. If he received preferential treatment, or selective process - fuck him. But if he plays the game the way it is supposed to be played - then more power to him. If this Development could get a Loan, or even a Grant, and then default, would the outcome be any different? If it fails, it fails. The County doesn't foot the bill any more or any less if he defaults on a loan, or a TIFF, or a grant. Nothing is 100% Guaranteed - even when it's 100% guaranteed. A permanent Marker is NOT permanent. The Titanic was NOT unsinkable. I don't believe anyone involved in the project is out to defraud anyone, and I doubt very much, that they are going into all of this just in order to shut it down 10 years from now. If a TIF is a TOOL to get the project off the ground, if it is a legal means to offset your expenses for a few years, if it is positive in any way, then why not allow it? Years ago, the State allowed casinos, and we missed out. Are they doing as well as they figured they would - not that I know of. But even if this project, or the next, or the next, can bring in a positive amount of income and investment to our region - why fight it so adamantly? If the County or Schools ONLY make $250,000 in a year, when they were "promised" $1,000,000 - do we NOT take the quarter million? I think I'd rather take the chance on growth, instead of holding on to every patch of grass in Gettysburg. The property is bringing in about $7,500 in taxes a year right now. And if it bothers you that the owners will make a lot of money from this project... So WHAT!? The last time I looked, that is the reason people make investments. I have no problem with the guy trying to get the money if it is available. But, I understand that they NEED the TIF in order to make this development work. Again, I ask, if it is so great, why do they need the TIF support?
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Post by Venter on Feb 28, 2014 9:22:34 GMT -5
I have no problem with the guy trying to get the money if it is available. But, I understand that they NEED the TIF in order to make this development work. Again, I ask, if it is so great, why do they need the TIF support? From what I understand, from attending the one meeting... The economy pretty much tanked around 2007 (as if I needed to state that). Bank Financing all but dried up. Let's face it, many families have become "Extended by Necessity" - in other words, children have remained in the nests for a lot longer than they traditionally would. As we begin digging out of this economic hole, I assume people will be able to sell their existing homes once again (something that has been difficult to do in many cases). And as they can sell, they have the opportunity to move out and up. The 55+ Development will/may appeal to those "Finally-Empty-Nesters".
There is little to entice a younger generation to make their homes in Adams County/Gettysburg, and very little to keep our children here, once they graduate. Don't get me wrong, in spite of the bullshit, I LOVE IT HERE, and it is a great destination for many families looking to make a home for themselves. Unfortunately, the Gettysburg Region may just become a "55+ Development" by Attrition. And judging by some of the backward-thinking Councilpersons, Supervisors, and Solicitors - it may do worse. Without new blood, whether that is young blood, or experienced blood, this region will begin to decline at a sharper rate.
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Dexter
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Post by Dexter on Feb 28, 2014 11:37:25 GMT -5
So, Venter, you are saying that traditional banks won't back this project? That there is a pretty big red flag to me!!!!!!
And if you premise is right that Adams County will become a 55+ community by attrition, why do we need this development? As I think Paul said, the addition of such a community will negatively impact other developments and private home sales.
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Post by lifesaver on Feb 28, 2014 16:00:26 GMT -5
Oh that is precious LS. SO, if this thing doesn't go as hoped, than this wonderful developer who does such a wonderful development will bring in another investor "or whatever". How about if that "or whatever" is file bankruptcy? OR he sales it to another developer? And then your wonderful development gets overseen by someone with another "vision"? Again, why does he need TIF? LOL Dexter. Let me adjust my tiara and respond Venter explained pretty well why TIF is needed. I was at two meetings and concur with everything Venter posted. How many meetings have you attended? After the first (the only one Paul attended) I wasn't 100% on board mainly because I still had questions about TIF financing. After the second meeting I was convinced that this project has the potential to be a good thing for Adams County. Again, don't take my word for it. Come to the next meeting March 27 7pm at the American Legion Gettysburg. Ask the same questions you are asking here, then decide whether you are for or against the project, and the use of TIF financing to do it. I feel confident they will be upfront and answer all of your questions. Let me know where you can make investments without risk. I want to cash in. Have you tried to get a mortgage lately? I was never so glad when that settlement date came and I felt we had our life back. Seriously. And "what if" this development does everything the developer says it will do?
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Dexter
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Post by Dexter on Mar 1, 2014 10:01:06 GMT -5
Sorry Lifesaver, my comment should have been directed to Alex's comment. ;( My reading comprehension wasn't so good. But, still the reason given for needing the TIF is the bad economy and not being able to get loans from the bank?!! So, a bank won't take a chance on this development than why should the taxpayers? If this is such a good thing, than why doesn't this guy seek out investor like you and Ravengirl and Alex to help pay for it? Sorry, I am not buying it. Rick Klein's development in Bendersville seemed like a good idea at the time, but, now building has stalled and I think he may have even sold everything to J.A. Myers (not positive on that fact, but am on the fact that building has stalled). AND I'm still not convinced that this development will result in a tax surplus. Roads need maintained and plowed, the people living in this development still need township and county services. Sorry, the thing sounds too good to be true and I remember what my daddy said about that.
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Post by lifesaver on Mar 1, 2014 13:41:20 GMT -5
Sorry Lifesaver, my comment should have been directed to Alex's comment. ;( My reading comprehension wasn't so good. But, still the reason given for needing the TIF is the bad economy and not being able to get loans from the bank?!! So, a bank won't take a chance on this development than why should the taxpayers? If this is such a good thing, than why doesn't this guy seek out investor like you and Ravengirl and Alex to help pay for it? Sorry, I am not buying it. Rick Klein's development in Bendersville seemed like a good idea at the time, but, now building has stalled and I think he may have even sold everything to J.A. Myers (not positive on that fact, but am on the fact that building has stalled). AND I'm still not convinced that this development will result in a tax surplus. Roads need maintained and plowed, the people living in this development still need township and county services. Sorry, the thing sounds too good to be true and I remember what my daddy said about that. And I think you should either attend a meeting or find a way to get more information before you make that decision. Check your messages
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Post by Venter on Mar 1, 2014 21:27:14 GMT -5
Oh that is precious [Alex] SO, if this thing doesn't go as hoped, than this wonderful developer who does such a wonderful development will bring in another investor "or whatever". How about if that "or whatever" is file bankruptcy? OR he sales it to another developer? And then your wonderful development gets overseen by someone with another "vision"? Again, why does he need TIF? Dexter, I've wondered the same thing about someone "Buying Out" the Development: - If it does go under, can the Discovery Gettysburg project be "Converted" to a Standard Residential Development?
- If it does, wouldn't that Void the 55+ Covenants that the Initial Homeowners invested in?
I would assume that they could then sue the developers, but if this goes under - I would also assume that the developers would be kaput too.
- At That Point, would the Investors in the Tax Incremental Financing be responsible for any Taxes Owed to the Three Taxing Bodies? (School District; Adams County; Straban Township)
- If Straban DOESN'T Support the TIF, they evidently still benefit from the Project - as I understand it, I believe they would still be receiving 100% Taxes Owed.
There are MANY things I will never profess to understand about a TIF. But there are also many things I can't mentally process... like how a Million Pound Jet can stay in the air. Even though planes come crashing down, I'll still fly.
What if this TIF Financing really is the wave of the future? I'm looking at it like any other Investment Opportunity - If the People actually Investing in it are taking the risks and making the profits, then that is their prerogative. If I understand it correctly, the Taxing Bodies will eventually make their money. They would all make nothing if there were no development, no progress.
In the mean time, the region should benefit from the influx of People who will use our Services - even if they do use our resources. Think about how much of our resources go toward the Millions of Tourists that Visit yearly. They use our Water, Roads, Fuel, Food... and they leave us their Waste, Pollution, and Sewage. As a Community, do we actually fare better with tourists than we do with permanent residents?
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moose
Post Master
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Post by moose on Mar 2, 2014 0:40:47 GMT -5
Oh that is precious [Alex] SO, if this thing doesn't go as hoped, than this wonderful developer who does such a wonderful development will bring in another investor "or whatever". How about if that "or whatever" is file bankruptcy? OR he sales it to another developer? And then your wonderful development gets overseen by someone with another "vision"? Again, why does he need TIF? Dexter, I've wondered the same thing about someone "Buying Out" the Development: - If it does go under, can the Discovery Gettysburg project be "Converted" to a Standard Residential Development?
- If it does, wouldn't that Void the 55+ Covenants that the Initial Homeowners invested in?
I would assume that they could then sue the developers, but if this goes under - I would also assume that the developers would be kaput too.
- At That Point, would the Investors in the Tax Incremental Financing be responsible for any Taxes Owed to the Three Taxing Bodies? (School District; Adams County; Straban Township)
- If Straban DOESN'T Support the TIF, they evidently still benefit from the Project - as I understand it, I believe they would still be receiving 100% Taxes Owed.
There are MANY things I will never profess to understand about a TIF. But there are also many things I can't mentally process... like how a Million Pound Jet can stay in the air. Even though planes come crashing down, I'll still fly.
What if this TIF Financing really is the wave of the future? I'm looking at it like any other Investment Opportunity - If the People actually Investing in it are taking the risks and making the profits, then that is their prerogative. If I understand it correctly, the Taxing Bodies will eventually make their money. They would all make nothing if there were no development, no progress.
In the mean time, the region should benefit from the influx of People who will use our Services - even if they do use our resources. Think about how much of our resources go toward the Millions of Tourists that Visit yearly. They use our Water, Roads, Fuel, Food... and they leave us their Waste, Pollution, and Sewage. As a Community, do we actually fare better with tourists than we do with permanent residents?
Thanks a lot Venter! Now, I'm confused about the whole project and the potential good vs evil. It's almost like trying to argue whether the benefits of the Maryland State Lottery earmarking proceeds to the Stadium Authority are better than not funding local stadiums that certainly have an direct and lasting economic benefit, than not funding them. The only clear difference is that proceeds from the Md. lottery are willingly and knowingly surrendered by those playing the numbers, whereas the taxes for a TIF are just taken from the taxpayers, with or without their consent. That's where I draw the line. It's one thing to have the people voluntarily give to a cause (whether or not it's a debatable evil as the lottery), but to indiscriminately take taxpayer revenue to fund a 'possible' economic return without any sort of taxpayer consent, just ain't right. Make it a referendum to find out whether the local taxpayers support it. The only problem is that everybody gets a vote, whether they own property or not. But those who rent, and don't own..."should" realize that those disbursements of revenue from the local coffers, really does filter down to them in some way or another, usually in the form of higher rent.
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Post by lifesaver on Mar 2, 2014 10:42:08 GMT -5
Dexter, I've wondered the same thing about someone "Buying Out" the Development: - If it does go under, can the Discovery Gettysburg project be "Converted" to a Standard Residential Development?
- If it does, wouldn't that Void the 55+ Covenants that the Initial Homeowners invested in?
I would assume that they could then sue the developers, but if this goes under - I would also assume that the developers would be kaput too.
- At That Point, would the Investors in the Tax Incremental Financing be responsible for any Taxes Owed to the Three Taxing Bodies? (School District; Adams County; Straban Township)
- If Straban DOESN'T Support the TIF, they evidently still benefit from the Project - as I understand it, I believe they would still be receiving 100% Taxes Owed.
There are MANY things I will never profess to understand about a TIF. But there are also many things I can't mentally process... like how a Million Pound Jet can stay in the air. Even though planes come crashing down, I'll still fly.
What if this TIF Financing really is the wave of the future? I'm looking at it like any other Investment Opportunity - If the People actually Investing in it are taking the risks and making the profits, then that is their prerogative. If I understand it correctly, the Taxing Bodies will eventually make their money. They would all make nothing if there were no development, no progress.
In the mean time, the region should benefit from the influx of People who will use our Services - even if they do use our resources. Think about how much of our resources go toward the Millions of Tourists that Visit yearly. They use our Water, Roads, Fuel, Food... and they leave us their Waste, Pollution, and Sewage. As a Community, do we actually fare better with tourists than we do with permanent residents?
Thanks a lot Venter! Now, I'm confused about the whole project and the potential good vs evil. It's almost like trying to argue whether the benefits of the Maryland State Lottery earmarking proceeds to the Stadium Authority are better than not funding local stadiums that certainly have an direct and lasting economic benefit, than not funding them. The only clear difference is that proceeds from the Md. lottery are willingly and knowingly surrendered by those playing the numbers, whereas the taxes for a TIF are just taken from the taxpayers, with or without their consent. That's where I draw the line. It's one thing to have the people voluntarily give to a cause (whether or not it's a debatable evil as the lottery), but to indiscriminately take taxpayer revenue to fund a 'possible' economic return without any sort of taxpayer consent, just ain't right. Make it a referendum to find out whether the local taxpayers support it. The only problem is that everybody gets a vote, whether they own property or not. But those who rent, and don't own..."should" realize that those disbursements of revenue from the local coffers, really does filter down to them in some way or another, usually in the form of higher rent. That would be a good idea moose. However, the only qualifications to be able to vote is that you are 18, a resident of the township or municipality where you vote, and you haven't been convicted of a felony. If the right to vote was as important to the average voter as you want it to be there would be 100% voter turnout at the polling places, whether it is a primary or not, and everyone's vote would be cast with a full knowledge and understanding of who or what they are voting for because they were making an informed decision. There would be no straight party votes. There would probably be no need for Spread the Mustard, because the inconsistencies in taxing would never happen. Property tax reassessments would be done fairly, and at regular intervals. Voters would see the benefit of a small fire tax to try to save our volunteer departments. Renters would understand that it affects them too in the form of higher rents. We would not have career politicians because they would be held accountable. Term limits would occur naturally. Congress would do the job they were elected to do. In a perfect world I would agree with you. In this world no. There are too many that would vote purely on the reason that it involves their taxes, without bothering to learn and make an informed decision, whether that would be to agree to the TIF funding or not.
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Post by Venter on Mar 2, 2014 11:33:18 GMT -5
Moose, Confused? Join the club. I feel like I'm dancing with myself... and both of me want to lead! Nuts in the Middle. I'm NOT trying to argue for or against this project, or TIFs in general. I JUST want to understand it better, and determine whether it is a good fit with other conventional financing, or whatever would get a project off the ground in Gettysburg. I may be wrong (always a first time), but here's the best way I can wrap my head around this TIF:
- The TIF will be Administered through The Adams County Industrial Development Authority (ACIDA)
- * " Is it difficult to get approval from all tax entities?
Sometimes. School districts are particularly strapped for cash and are reluctant to remove tax dollars from the funding stream. However, as the new development would not occur absent the TIF funding mechanism, the school district is not really "losing" tax funds because it would not receive the new development tax revenues absent the project occurring in the first place. The school district can also agree that a portion of TIF funds (less than 100 percent) will be used to repay the TIF bond, thereby creating some immediate new revenue for the school district. TIF districts are designed to generate other new development and increase property values outside of a TIF district, which also results in new and immediately accessible tax revenue for a school district. When school districts become educated regarding these aspects of a TIF project, they understand that the project will create a net tax gain and create an immediate positive financial impact for the district.
- * The program is part of an effort by the Commonwealth Financing Authority (“CFA”) and the Department of
Community and Economic Development (“DCED”) to provide credit enhancement for TIF projects to improve market access and lower capital costs through the use of guarantees to issuers of bonds or other indebtedness (“TIF Debt Obligations”). - * Section III – Guarantee
A. Guarantees are available for projects that meet the above eligibility criteria. The maximum amount that the CFA will pay under its guarantee is $5,000,000, inclusive of principal and interest. Guarantee amounts will be determined by the scope of the project, the estimated projections of future tax revenues to be generated by the project, the estimated financing cost savings realized through the provision of a guarantee, and the ability of the CFA to assume the rights to security provided to the holders of the TIF project debt in the event of a default. B. The CFA guarantee will not guarantee completion of a project. Unless the project documents include enforceable covenants on the part of the project developer to commence and complete the project described in the tax increment plan within a specified time, backed by a completion bond or other adequate security, the CFA guarantee will not be effective until the project that is expected to generate the tax increments is completed. C. If a project is approved for a guarantee, the CFA will execute a guarantee agreement in favor of the issuing authority and the holder or holders of the TIF Debt Obligations, and will negotiate the terms of the security and the circumstances under which the guarantee may be called. In all cases, funds supporting the guarantee will remain under the custody and control of the CFA until such time as a call is made, and then the CFA will have a reasonable time within which to ascertain the amount of the outstanding debt and to provide the funds to satisfy its guarantee obligation. D. In no case will the CFA guarantee payment of municipal or tax liens levied against a project or the occupant of a facility located on a project site.
- Discovery Gettysburg Project:
Total 4 Individual TIF Projects, 4 Distinct Phases - Each of the 4 TIFs is Independent of the others
I think of it in these Terms, and I'm not sure if I have this right, but here goes:
- You have 2 Pizzas.
- The First Pizza - is LARGE ENOUGH to feed all of Adams County (Standard Municipal, County, and School Taxes)
- We already have enough Pizza to Serve EVERYONE relatively well - no one will be wanting for a Slice
- A NEW Family wants Pizza, but we don't have enough to share.
- SO... We order a Second Pizza - it's a Personal Pan Pizza
- That Pizza wouldn't even NEED to exist, except for the fact that someone ordered it for the New Family - (instead of telling them to "pound sand') No Food Out of OUR Mouths.
- WE, being the Benevolent Community we are, Allow the New Family to EAT with us - Problem is, they can't really afford it all on their own.
- So, We Help Foot the Bill, in good faith, AND we're even Offered Back Several Slices while they eat it.
- Over time, they can afford their OWN Pizza, and we are repaid when they get on their feet.
Now I'm hungry... and still confused
* www.newpa.com/find-and-apply-for-funding/funding-and-program-finder/tax-increment-financing-tif-guarantee-program Once on the Page, click on the "Download Guidelines" block for more detail. www.newpa.com/search/node/TIF
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Post by paulkellett on Mar 2, 2014 14:24:03 GMT -5
Venter, your pizza analogy is lacking. First, we are never repaid ever. The money used to pay the bond is tax money that we will never ever get. But the residents will begin enjoying the benefits of that which taxes provide immediately.It is more akin to saying to a landlord, you have a ten percent vacancy rate give me an apartment for 20 years at 1/3 the rent and after 20 years,I will pay full rent. It is not about preserving every inch of green space, it is about setting up two taxing classes, one who pays full taxes plus supports the other class who pays 1/3. TIF is rarely used in PA, why because of the inherent unfairness of it. I do not blame Mr. Klein for asking for it, nor am I jealous etc.There are only so many houses that will be built and sold in Adams County and it should be that all developments pay there taxes. Also, when I went to the meeting, he said 40 million in improvements, 60 million in TIF financing, so that over 20 years would be a 3% iterest rate most TIFs that I could find pay 6%, again what gives? Honesty is important.
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Post by pipeman on Mar 2, 2014 15:06:05 GMT -5
I believe Venters description is very accurate and in plain language. Kellet you are not fairly seeing the whole picture and instead making this project out to be a loss. When in fact, there is much to gain for this Developer which is not Klein as you wrongly stated. I was at last meeting and after hearing the explanations re TIF I am confident that this is a project that we need to have happen here in Adams County. As I see it the school will benefit greatly from this. Increasing our tax base, yet not adding any children to the district since it is a 55+ community. The fact of the matter is why would not any of the 3 tax bases support this? GASD, Adams Co and Straban. All 3 are being set up in a winning situation. I cannot imagine this developer after years, more than 8 years doing research and study for this development would go on with this project if he and his team were not confident of the outcome. This development will pay its taxes and generate over 20 years, not millions but billion i tax revenue. The outcome for the future of Adams is a good deal. With 200 homes being built the first year and thereafter for next 10 - 12 years. Until I heard all the details, read the material, met the developer Robert Karen and his team, I was not so sure what TIF meant. Now I do and highly support this Development coming to our county.
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Dexter
Supreme Poster
Posts: 261
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Post by Dexter on Mar 2, 2014 16:41:29 GMT -5
I'll say again, if something sounds too good to be true.....
BTW, Pipeman, do you really honestly believe that this development will build and sell 200 homes a year? Really?
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Post by paulkellett on Mar 2, 2014 18:40:53 GMT -5
Pipeman: "This development will pay its taxes and generate over 20 years, not millions but billion i tax revenue." 2,000 homes into 1 billion is $500,000. per home. Really? WOW!!! So after twenty years when they are paying not 1/3 of their tax burden, but all of it- We can expect 3 billion more over those 20 years!!! Of course that $75,000. a year tax bill might deter a few buyers, but the low introductory rate of just $25,000/year should lure them in, 200 homes a year should be no problem.
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Post by Venter on Mar 2, 2014 18:41:47 GMT -5
Venter, your pizza analogy is lacking. First, we are never repaid ever. The money used to pay the bond is tax money that we will never ever get. But the residents will begin enjoying the benefits of that which taxes provide immediately.It is more akin to saying to a landlord, you have a ten percent vacancy rate give me an apartment for 20 years at 1/3 the rent and after 20 years,I will pay full rent. It is not about preserving every inch of green space, it is about setting up two taxing classes, one who pays full taxes plus supports the other class who pays 1/3. TIF is rarely used in PA, why because of the inherent unfairness of it. I do not blame Mr. Klein for asking for it, nor am I jealous etc.There are only so many houses that will be built and sold in Adams County and it should be that all developments pay there taxes. Also, when I went to the meeting, he said 40 million in improvements, 60 million in TIF financing, so that over 20 years would be a 3% interest rate most TIFs that I could find pay 6%, again what gives? Honesty is important. Paul, You said, "The money used to pay the bond is tax money that we will never ever get. But the residents will begin enjoying the benefits of that which taxes provide immediately."But, Paul, the way I look at it is that WE WOULDN'T BE GETTING ANY Taxes at ALL from this Property if not for this Proposed Development (besides the C&G monies it would have continued to produce over the years). I don't Know if they will Sell 200 Homes a Year - I also don't Know that they Won't. Honestly, I don't believe it can be done, but they have to Propose Something! Is it "Fair" to Other Developers? If the Other Developers are NOT Given the SAME Opportunities to APPLY for a TIF - THEN I would most certainly cry FOUL! Let's say You and I Belong to the Same Bank. I could Request a Bank Loan right now... and not get it. On the other hand, You could apply for a similar loan... and get it. If they Denied Me because of anything like my Race, my Age, my Religion (or lack of it), or my Sex (or lack of it) - then I'd cry foul! But if we are both on Equal Ground - OTHER than the Financial Differences, or Poor Business Plans, then more power to you. I couldn't Fault YOU or THE BANK for making your financial agreements between yourselves - even though they are lending you MY money. Hell, I hate when I pay high insurance rates, and then InsuranceCo uses it to Sponsor the Olympics! Hey, that's MY fuckin' money!!! But, NO, it's NOT! Once I pay my Insurance, or Pay my State Taxes, I basically have said, "Do with it as you will!" Frustrating, yes, but as long as it is above board, and legal, and my Representatives have ALLOWED this to be done with "my money", then it's done. NOW, on the Other Hand - we can always try to VOTE People out who disagree with our desires - but this is water under the Bridge. Unless this is a Flawed Program, with illegal intent, then as long as it is a Law, in my opinion, it remains a Valid Means of Borrowing Money. If the State allows and promotes TIFs, then why not use them as we would any other economic tool? There are MANY Flavors of Grants, Loans, etc., so if this TIF fits the bill, in a proper and legal manner, then why not use it? If they DON'T Fit the Criteria, yet STILL Receive the TIF, then I'll be right beside you in Protest. I don't think of it as ANY PART of MY Pizza. It's their Pizza, their Deal with the Pizza Maker. Is it Fair to Bitch because I Found a Coupon for 50% Off, and USED IT - but you were Standing next to me in Line and Had to Pay FULL PRICE? I may be pissed and disappointed, at the "Unfairness" of the Situation, but consider the fact that YOU Could have ALSO Used a Coupon - IF you had found one.
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Post by paulkellett on Mar 2, 2014 19:46:40 GMT -5
Venter, you are looking at it from a different perspective than I. You see it as a question of fairness amongst borrowers, I on the other hand am commenting on behalf of the lender side. The decision is not whether or not Symphony can/ should apply for TIF, of course they should. The question has always been posed as should it be given to them. I am quite frankly surprised that you of all people would say heck, if local government approves it then it must be good. "I don't think of it as ANY PART of MY Pizza.It's their Pizza, their Deal with the Pizza Maker" Yet it is your pizza, as that pizza will use your police,courts, emergency services and all those other things that "pizza makers" provide. If a lot of folks are given a half off coupon, then the price has to go up for those folks who are not given one, as the pizza maker has to stay in business. Why do I care if he can sell 200 homes a year? well, if he fails, the first thing that will be asked is can we renegotiate the terms of the loan. either 100% of the tax difference for twenty years or a longer payback period than 20 years, either way that 1 billion is further from reality. Likewise a failed TIF makes other TIFs that much harder to obtain as the too risky category raises costs. My dream of GOOGLE spying on me from next door might be dashed. Again, TIF is not a right that you qualify for, it has been around a long while and has never been used locally, so I just feel that this project is not that special to create anew tax category
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Post by lifesaver on Mar 2, 2014 20:36:11 GMT -5
Pipeman: "This development will pay its taxes and generate over 20 years, not millions but billion i tax revenue." 2,000 homes into 1 billion is $500,000. per home. Really? WOW!!! So after twenty years when they are paying not 1/3 of their tax burden, but all of it- We can expect 3 billion more over those 20 years!!! Of course that $75,000. a year tax bill might deter a few buyers, but the low introductory rate of just $25,000/year should lure them in, 200 homes a year should be no problem. That figure is incorrect. Pipeman may not have heard the information correctly, or misinterpreted the information given. Here is information taken directly from information I got from the first meeting. You were there too Paul, you should have received the information as well. From the NAHB report May 2013 Housing Policy Department "The Metro Area Impact of Discovery Gettysburg in Adams County, Pennsylvania, Income, Jobs and Taxes Generated". This is where pipeman possibly got that billion figure. Cumulative Effects after 15 years After 15 years, assuming a constant rate of construction, and a schedule of future sales provided by the developer, the cumulative
impact of the 2000 home Discovery Gettysburg active adult community is estimated at 1.3 billion in local income 185.8 million in taxes and other revenue for local governments, and 29,507 local full-time job equivalents
These are cumulative totals after 15 years, so the full-time equivalent number means enough work was generated over the 15 year period to keep 29,507 workers employed full time for one year. The annual ongoing effects that begin in year 11 after all 2000 homes are built and sold are
104.3 million in local income 17.8 million in taxes and other revenue for local governments, and 2,341 full-time jobs sustained on an ongoing basis
Not sure I understand your logic of the unfairness of the TIF tax. Would it also be unfair for a family to pay $300 a month for Section 8 housing, and I would have to pay $800 a month for the same housing? Who comes up with the other $500 to pay you, the landlord for that housing. Why, I believe that would be the taxpayers, would it not?
Now, just to be clear, I'm not hanging onto those figures above as gospel. I was leery of the use of TIF funding at first. I have heard enough, however, to believe that this project will have a positive effect on our local economy.
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