|
Post by gettysburger on Mar 3, 2011 15:29:43 GMT -5
Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Military Funeral Protesters Mar 2, 2011 – 11:17 AM
Mark Sherman AP WASHINGTON -- The Supreme Court ruled Wednesday that the First Amendment protects fundamentalist church members who mount anti-gay protests outside military funerals, despite the pain they cause grieving families.
The court voted 8-1 in favor of the Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka, Kan. The decision upheld an appeals court ruling that threw out a $5 million judgment to the father of a dead Marine who sued church members after they picketed his son's funeral.
Members of the Westboro Baptist Church, a Kansas church known for its vehement anti-gay positions and for protesting at a US soldiers' funeral, stage a protest across the street from Northwestern High School in Hyattsville, Maryland, on Tuesday. Nicholas Kamm, AFP/Getty Images Members of the Westboro Baptist Church, a Kansas church known for its vehement anti-gay positions and for protesting at military funerals, stage a protest near a high school in Hyattsville, Md., on Tuesday. Chief Justice John Roberts wrote the opinion for the court. Justice Samuel Alito dissented.
Roberts said free speech rights in the First Amendment shield the funeral protesters, noting that they obeyed police directions and were 1,000 feet from the church.
"Speech is powerful. It can stir people to action, move them to tears of both joy and sorrow, and - as it did here - inflict great pain. On the facts before us, we cannot react to that pain by punishing the speaker," Roberts said. "As a nation we have chosen a different course - to protect even hurtful speech on public issues to ensure that we do not stifle public debate."
Alito strongly disagreed. "Our profound national commitment to free and open debate is not a license for the vicious verbal assault that occurred in this case," he said.
Matthew Snyder died in Iraq in 2006 and his body was returned to the United States for burial. Members of the Westboro Baptist Church, who have picketed military funerals for several years, decided to protest outside the Westminster, Md., church where his funeral was to be held.
The Rev. Fred Phelps and his family members who make up most of the Westboro Baptist Church have picketed many military funerals in their quest to draw attention to their incendiary view that U.S. deaths in Afghanistan and Iraq are God's punishment for the nation's tolerance of homosexuality.
They showed up with their usual signs, including "Thank God for dead soldiers," ''You're Going to Hell," ''God Hates the USA/Thank God for 9/11," and one that combined the U.S. Marine Corps motto, Semper Fi, with a slur against gay men.
The church members drew counter-demonstrators, as well as media coverage and a heavy police presence to maintain order. The result was a spectacle that led to altering the route of the funeral procession.
Several weeks later, Albert Snyder was surfing the Internet for tributes to his son from other soldiers and strangers when he came upon a poem on the church's website that attacked Matthew's parents for the way they brought up their son.
Soon after, Snyder filed a lawsuit accusing the Phelpses of intentionally inflicting emotional distress. He won $11 million at trial, later reduced by a judge to $5 million.
The federal appeals court in Richmond, Va., threw out the verdict and said the Constitution shielded the church members from liability.
Forty-eight states, 42 U.S. senators and veterans groups sided with Snyder, asking the court to shield funerals from the Phelps family's "psychological terrorism."
Sponsored Links While distancing themselves from the church's message, media organizations, including The Associated Press, urged the court to side with the Phelps family because of concerns that a victory for Snyder could erode speech rights.
Roberts described the court's holding as narrow, and in a separate opinion, Justice Stephen Breyer suggested in other circumstances, governments would not be "powerless to provide private individuals with necessary protection."
But in this case, Breyer said, it would be wrong to "punish Westboro for seeking to communicate its views on matters of public concern."
Margie Phelps, a daughter of the minister and a lawyer who argued the case at the Supreme Court, said she expected the outcome. "The only surprise is that Justice Alito did not feel compelled to follow his oath," Phelps said. "We read the law. We follow the law. The only way for a different ruling is to shred the First Amendment."
She also offered her church's view of the decision. "I think it's pretty self-explanatory, but here's the core point: The wrath of God is pouring onto this land. Rather than trying to shut us up, use your platforms to tell this nation to mourn for your sins."
|
|
|
Post by Venter on Mar 4, 2011 10:53:32 GMT -5
Then maybe the Police need to give different directions!
If these people want to make Political Statements, then they can picket in front of the steps of Congress. Doing so at a funeral is ONLY hurtful to the families of the deceased. It is like "off-premise advertising" - their protest has nothing to do with the event.
In the sense of "Public Safety" and "Traffic Interference", etc., I'm SURE that the municipalities can find a way to deal with this in a Constitutionally safe manner. Become more proactive, as opposed to reactive in dealing with them - just as they do with the KKK Rallies.
You have to give her credit for outsmarting the entire Supreme Court, and whatever lame lawyers were on the Prosecution side of this issue. Roberts said,"On the facts before us, we cannot react to that pain by punishing the speaker". That means that the PROSECUTION fucked up! The next time they try this type of case, and there WILL BE a next time, I think the Prosecuting Lawyers need to be better prepared.
I can't believe I'm actually saying this, but there are times when the First Amendment needs to be looked at closer, and it's already tattered, so a little shredding may help a bit.
When the purpose of the message is to INCITE, that should be enough to remove the protesters from that environment. The messages should be allowed at their church, their lawns, and on a billboard, if they so choose - but their only purpose at the funeral is to incite and disrupt.
|
|
dspitz17325
Need to Get a Life!
I came to chew bubblegum and kick some ass and i am all out of bubblegum .
Posts: 543
|
Post by dspitz17325 on Mar 4, 2011 11:33:39 GMT -5
I am waiting for the Westboro CULT to protest the wrong funeral , you know the kind of people who open carry .
|
|
|
Post by Fire Marshal Bill on Mar 4, 2011 15:25:17 GMT -5
Venter I do agree that there is a time and place. I completely agree with free speech but I feel you at times have to respect the feelings of others. To protest at the Pentagon or on the steps of the Capital or in front of the White House is fine. But to protest at the funeral of a young man or woman who has given their life serving their country is wrong. It is because of millions of young men and woman who served that these (gosh I don’t know what to call them, they aren’t people) are able to do the things they do. The fact that this young man could have been called upon to defend this country should merit some respect.
I believe that perhaps it would be appropriate for the honor guard firing squad to be given live ammunition, and be allowed to aim low the next time they show up.
Perhaps we should solicit Rep. Clymer to introduce legislation to establish a 10 mile buffer zone to keep protesters from ANY funeral?
|
|
|
Post by djturnz on Mar 7, 2011 10:15:24 GMT -5
Isn't there a group that stands guard at Military Funerals and keeps protestors out?
|
|
|
Post by Fire Marshal Bill on Mar 7, 2011 10:22:59 GMT -5
Isn't there a group that stands guard at Military Funerals and keeps protestors out? Yes someone sent me a video of them the other day. Will try to find the name of the group. It is a group of motorcyclist, mostly veterans who form a visual block between the protesters and the funeral, and then play patriotic music to cover the protesters voices. The group is headed by a minister who is also a veteran. Almost makes me want to purchase a bike.
|
|
HoneyBadger
Poster Child
HoneyBadger don't give a shit.
Posts: 373
|
Post by HoneyBadger on Mar 7, 2011 13:41:26 GMT -5
Isn't there a group that stands guard at Military Funerals and keeps protestors out? The Patriot Guard Riders. Bikers and veterans.
|
|
HoneyBadger
Poster Child
HoneyBadger don't give a shit.
Posts: 373
|
Post by HoneyBadger on Mar 7, 2011 13:59:37 GMT -5
If we all think rationally, the Supreme Court made the right decision about the case. Granted, the decision is offensive to everyone but Westboro. People are even complaining that the Supreme Court didn't touch the poem Westboro posted on the internet about Matthew's parents. There is definitely garbage on the internet but once censorship hits the internet nothing is safe.
You can't have Freedom of Speech if you're going to stifle what is offensive to you. People say that American Dad is offensive. Family Guy is offensive. South Park is offensive. I wouldn't know; I don't watch them. Westboro is beyond offensive and I wish that they'd disappear.
If scotus had imposed penalties on Westboro where would it have ended? Just be grateful for the freedoms we have; we aren't executed for demonstrating to express our beliefs - yet.
Towns and cities can take note of what happened and write their new laws now. They don't have to wait until after the fact. Get the laws limiting access to military funerals enacted before Westboro shows up. There is damned little free in the U.S. any more and I don't want to see Freedom of Speech trampled because of haters like members of Westboro.
Take your best pot shots at me. Call me a hater too. Anyone who knows me knows better but I'm not going to explain myself beyond what I've already said.
|
|
|
Post by lifesaver on Mar 7, 2011 14:37:04 GMT -5
If we all think rationally, the Supreme Court made the right decision about the case. Granted, the decision is offensive to everyone but Westboro. People are even complaining that the Supreme Court didn't touch the poem Westboro posted on the internet about Matthew's parents. There is definitely garbage on the internet but once censorship hits the internet nothing is safe. You can't have Freedom of Speech if you're going to stifle what is offensive to you. People say that American Dad is offensive. Family Guy is offensive. South Park is offensive. I wouldn't know; I don't watch them. Westboro is beyond offensive and I wish that they'd disappear. If scotus had imposed penalties on Westboro where would it have ended? Just be grateful for the freedoms we have; we aren't executed for demonstrating to express our beliefs - yet. Towns and cities can take note of what happened and write their new laws now. They don't have to wait until after the fact. Get the laws limiting access to military funerals enacted before Westboro shows up. There is damned little free in the U.S. any more and I don't want to see Freedom of Speech trampled because of haters like members of Westboro. Take your best pot shots at me. Call me a hater too. Anyone who knows me knows better but I'm not going to explain myself beyond what I've already said. Well said, FT. I agree with you. I have also seen protestors on their bikes, revving those engines (thank GOD in this case for loud pipes, ) and carrying the flag buffering the Westboro idiots and drowning out their chants and shielding their signs of hate. Free speech works both ways. In this instance the outpouring of honor and respect is what I hope these families will remember.
|
|
|
Post by Fire Marshal Bill on Mar 8, 2011 9:00:00 GMT -5
Isn't there a group that stands guard at Military Funerals and keeps protestors out? The Patriot Guard Riders. Bikers and veterans. There was an item on the news this morning, and I didn't catch the exact numbers but the item said that they have been getting new members every day, but since this decision the number of new members each day has almost doubled.
|
|
|
Post by djturnz on Mar 8, 2011 12:06:35 GMT -5
Knowing what I know about FT, I find it hilariously ironic that she is pro-free speech. I can't share what I know, but she knows, and I find it very funny.
|
|
HoneyBadger
Poster Child
HoneyBadger don't give a shit.
Posts: 373
|
Post by HoneyBadger on Mar 8, 2011 12:42:20 GMT -5
Knowing what I know about FT, I find it hilariously ironic that she is pro-free speech. I can't share what I know, but she knows, and I find it very funny. I have no idea why you find my pro free speech stance hilariously ironic. You're not concerned about my privacy or modesty or personal feelings or you wouldn't have put a feeler out to see how many fish bite. Actually, I don't know what you know so share it with me. I wasn't talking about pissy little things said on BV or Topix. I was talking about issues that could cause censorship by the courts. I am curious about why you'd want to start something with me. What have I ever done to you? That case - if the ruling had gone the other way - could have set a precedent that eventually might have included gun control and the right to bear arms publicly. Think about it a moment and then expose my dirty little secret.
|
|
|
Post by getysbg on Mar 8, 2011 20:43:51 GMT -5
If we all think rationally, the Supreme Court made the right decision about the case. Granted, the decision is offensive to everyone but Westboro. People are even complaining that the Supreme Court didn't touch the poem Westboro posted on the internet about Matthew's parents. There is definitely garbage on the internet but once censorship hits the internet nothing is safe. You can't have Freedom of Speech if you're going to stifle what is offensive to you. People say that American Dad is offensive. Family Guy is offensive. South Park is offensive. I wouldn't know; I don't watch them. Westboro is beyond offensive and I wish that they'd disappear. If scotus had imposed penalties on Westboro where would it have ended? Just be grateful for the freedoms we have; we aren't executed for demonstrating to express our beliefs - yet. Towns and cities can take note of what happened and write their new laws now. They don't have to wait until after the fact. Get the laws limiting access to military funerals enacted before Westboro shows up. There is damned little free in the U.S. any more and I don't want to see Freedom of Speech trampled because of haters like members of Westboro. Take your best pot shots at me. Call me a hater too. Anyone who knows me knows better but I'm not going to explain myself beyond what I've already said. T.- you did right on this.
|
|
HoneyBadger
Poster Child
HoneyBadger don't give a shit.
Posts: 373
|
Post by HoneyBadger on Mar 8, 2011 21:03:04 GMT -5
If we all think rationally, the Supreme Court made the right decision about the case. Granted, the decision is offensive to everyone but Westboro. People are even complaining that the Supreme Court didn't touch the poem Westboro posted on the internet about Matthew's parents. There is definitely garbage on the internet but once censorship hits the internet nothing is safe. You can't have Freedom of Speech if you're going to stifle what is offensive to you. People say that American Dad is offensive. Family Guy is offensive. South Park is offensive. I wouldn't know; I don't watch them. Westboro is beyond offensive and I wish that they'd disappear. If scotus had imposed penalties on Westboro where would it have ended? Just be grateful for the freedoms we have; we aren't executed for demonstrating to express our beliefs - yet. Towns and cities can take note of what happened and write their new laws now. They don't have to wait until after the fact. Get the laws limiting access to military funerals enacted before Westboro shows up. There is damned little free in the U.S. any more and I don't want to see Freedom of Speech trampled because of haters like members of Westboro. Take your best pot shots at me. Call me a hater too. Anyone who knows me knows better but I'm not going to explain myself beyond what I've already said. T, you did right on this. getysbg, I thought that you were ripping on me until I saw the brief sentence you wrote. Thank you. By the way, the Remembrance Day photos are glorious. Thanks for posting.
|
|
HoneyBadger
Poster Child
HoneyBadger don't give a shit.
Posts: 373
|
Post by HoneyBadger on Mar 9, 2011 14:11:37 GMT -5
Knowing what I know about FT, I find it hilariously ironic that she is pro-free speech. I can't share what I know, but she knows, and I find it very funny. I have no idea why you find my pro free speech stance hilariously ironic. You're not concerned about my privacy or modesty or personal feelings or you wouldn't have put a feeler out to see how many fish bite. Actually, I don't know what you know so share it with me. I wasn't talking about pissy little things said on BV or Topix. I was talking about issues that could cause censorship by the courts. I am curious about why you'd want to start something with me. What have I ever done to you? That case - if the ruling had gone the other way - could have set a precedent that eventually might have included gun control and the right to bear arms publicly. Think about it a moment and then expose my dirty little secret. Okay, you were logged in today. What is it that you and I know that is so hilarious? Really - you set me up now tell your joke.
|
|
|
Post by djturnz on Mar 10, 2011 9:13:13 GMT -5
I emailed you. I meant no disparagment against you. I was not making you the punchline of any joke. I will not explain it here, but I explained what I meant in the email. If you wish to make that public, you may, but I will not.
|
|
HoneyBadger
Poster Child
HoneyBadger don't give a shit.
Posts: 373
|
Post by HoneyBadger on Mar 10, 2011 10:08:04 GMT -5
I emailed you. I meant no disparagment against you. I was not making you the punchline of any joke. I will not explain it here, but I explained what I meant in the email. If you wish to make that public, you may, but I will not. Message received and understood. I apologize to you for over-reacting. Frankly, I'm not accustomed to men giving a hoot about my feelings or my privacy. Thank you for being so gracious and explaining that you were simply surprised by my position based on my line of work. You were far more discreet than I frequently am and I appreciate your concern.
|
|
|
Post by getysbg on Mar 12, 2011 6:17:03 GMT -5
getysbg, I thought that you were ripping on me until I saw the brief sentence you wrote. Thank you. By the way, the Remembrance Day photos are glorious. Thanks for posting. Sorry for the poor posting technique. It still took two more tries to fix it. I always thought that the 1st Amendment was there to protect idiots such as Westboro. Popular opinion has it's own guarantee. We are not free unless we can all speak. Glad you liked the photos. You ought to come - at least stick your head in the door and say 'Hi'.
|
|
|
Post by redlock on Mar 12, 2011 11:48:09 GMT -5
Those damned idiots have threatened to protest the funeral of the 7 children killed in the fire up in Perry County.
|
|
HoneyBadger
Poster Child
HoneyBadger don't give a shit.
Posts: 373
|
Post by HoneyBadger on Mar 12, 2011 13:41:24 GMT -5
getysbg, I thought that you were ripping on me until I saw the brief sentence you wrote. Thank you. By the way, the Remembrance Day photos are glorious. Thanks for posting. Sorry for the poor posting technique. It still took two more tries to fix it. I always thought that the 1st Amendment was there to protect idiots such as Westboro. Popular opinion has it's own guarantee. We are not free unless we can all speak. Glad you liked the photos. You ought to come - at least stick your head in the door and say 'Hi'. Perhaps this year I will. I know that I said - in a moment of frustration I believe - that I don't care about Remembrance Day but I truly do. With all of the issues we have in Gettysburg I can't think of another place where I'd rather live. This is my home and I love it. I enjoy the reenactors and I like the tourists. Honestly - it's some of the locals who annoy me. But those annoyances are minor and they fade away.
|
|
HoneyBadger
Poster Child
HoneyBadger don't give a shit.
Posts: 373
|
Post by HoneyBadger on Mar 12, 2011 13:45:05 GMT -5
Those damned idiots have threatened to protest the funeral of the 7 children killed in the fire up in Perry County. I hope that they have the nerve to show up. Perhaps they'll see what we all know - that just because what they do is legal it doesn't mean that people have to tolerate them. As difficult as it is to turn away from what offends eventually the offender loses their audience. No cameras, no press and no interviews will defeat their purpose. Don't Broadway shows close when they don't have an audience?
|
|
|
Post by Fire Marshal Bill on Mar 12, 2011 16:51:31 GMT -5
Those damned idiots have threatened to protest the funeral of the 7 children killed in the fire up in Perry County. Yes I head that today from two people. Kind of interesting someone was telling me today that at one of their demonstrations someone slashed all their tires. The police took a report and promised to look into it. When they called for help, all of the local towing services and auto parts stores were either too busy to help them, didn't have the proper size of tire, or were closed.
|
|
|
Post by Sofa King on Mar 12, 2011 19:06:45 GMT -5
Those damned idiots have threatened to protest the funeral of the 7 children killed in the fire up in Perry County. Yes I head that today from two people. Kind of interesting someone was telling me today that at one of their demonstrations someone slashed all their tires. The police took a report and promised to look into it. When they called for help, all of the local towing services and auto parts stores were either too busy to help them, didn't have the proper size of tire, or were closed. That's great, but the Westboro lawyer bitch will probably sue all of them, and win.
|
|
|
Post by rock on Mar 13, 2011 0:36:37 GMT -5
I am waiting for the Westboro CULT to protest the wrong funeral , you know the kind of people who open carry . Well you got your wish they have threatened to protest at the Perry Co. funeral for the 7 children that perished in the house fire last week. I have posted on FB and other places that these wack jobs don't know who they are messing with when they are coming to Perry Co. because there are places up there that don't show up on any map and alot of them I'm sure open carry. For all you FB people there is a organization called Americas hates the Westboro Baptist Church or something to that extent I urge all of you to like this page. I can't remember how many have liked this page but I know it is alot plus you can see how many other Perry Countians are saying the same thing as everybody else is saying.
|
|
|
Post by redlock on Mar 13, 2011 0:53:12 GMT -5
I also know Perry Countians will also stick up for those in the Mennonite and Amish communities if outsiders mess with them. It's not Lancaster county where they're put on display...
|
|