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Post by redlock on Sept 5, 2013 23:38:13 GMT -5
I wish there was a way for us residents of Straban to band together and stop paying taxes in protest to their obvious anti-business, anti-tax relief. Redlock, start one yourself, if Al Ferranto can do it in Cumberland Township anyone can. I don't think I quite understand the relevancy of the reference to Al Ferranto in regards to my wish.
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Post by lifesaver on Sept 6, 2013 8:01:55 GMT -5
Redlock, start one yourself, if Al Ferranto can do it in Cumberland Township anyone can. I don't think I quite understand the relevancy of the reference to Al Ferranto in regards to my wish. I agree redlock. Al Ferranto is irrelevant. What I think Alex is suggesting is that you find some like minded residents of Straban Township and begin attending the township supervisors meetings, meetings of the township planning commission etc. and make your voice heard. Ordinances are not set in stone and can be changed. Variances can also be granted. Every business etc. that wants to come into a township has their own legal representation as well. Straban seems to be hiding behind the "ordinances" to refuse the requests. There is no law that says Straban's definition of "no hardship" cannot be legally challenged. Obstructionist agendas will continue unless you make your voice heard. The obstructionists will continue to use the argument that "legal challenges will cost the taxpayers a lot of money" to give credence to their agenda. Don't buy into it. Your voice in local government can be a powerful tool, especially if there is more than one of you.
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Post by lifesaver on Sept 6, 2013 8:11:17 GMT -5
I hope Straban Township gets out of its own way. I wish there was Video available of the meeting. It's unfortunate that the townships that don't want the businesses, are the ones being courted. I'd love for these businesses to come further West on 30 into Cumberland Township! I agree Venter! For the record plans are in the works for a Dollar General in Franklin Twp. Sometimes progress can be made despite attempts to stifle it. A portion of the July 2013 minutes. It's a start!
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Post by Fire Marshal Bill on Sept 6, 2013 9:03:58 GMT -5
And don't these supervisors realize that should they let some of these businesses in, they will be paying taxes?
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Post by Venter on Sept 6, 2013 9:48:39 GMT -5
Funny how most of the actions by the Township Solicitor, results in more work for the Township Solicitor Think about it, everything that the various Townships need from Solicitor Walton Davis, they must pay his fees to get. I wish I could create a need for my own services - if it weren't for meddling solicitors, I'd probably have more work anyway Must be nice though... - This will take a few more hours (at $XXX per hour)
- Back to the Drawing Board (at $XXX per hour)
- Let's revisit that at a later time (at $XXX per hour)
- Have Your Attorney speak with Our Attorney (at $XXX per hour)
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Post by Venter on Sept 6, 2013 9:49:59 GMT -5
And don't these supervisors realize that should they let some of these businesses in, they will be paying taxes? ... and creating jobs, and saving people time and money by providing services closer to home...
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Post by Fire Marshal Bill on Sept 6, 2013 11:29:50 GMT -5
And don't these supervisors realize that should they let some of these businesses in, they will be paying taxes? ... and creating jobs, and saving people time and money by providing services closer to home... And as I understand it, the purpose of the appeal is not to see if they meet the letter of the code/law, but to see if there can be a compromise that will allow the property or business to be in compliance with the intent of the code, and not specifically the letter.
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Post by Venter on Sept 6, 2013 13:40:08 GMT -5
If these Local Townships just realize HOW MUCH MONEY is leaving our region, just because of their stubbornness. Each time I have to go to Hanover, I usually eat my meal out there, and often buy my gas out there too. On average, I'll visit about 3 to 4 stores during the trip. Same goes for Chambersburg or Frederick.
A store like Tractor Supply, is a "destination store" (as opposed to a grocery store, or WalMart) Many stores and businesses will benefit from their existence here.
I think it is the Straban Mentality that if they build it, the people will come - and that is ultimately what they are trying to prevent.
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Post by redlock on Sept 6, 2013 14:03:37 GMT -5
I think it is the Straban Mentality that if they build it, the people will come - and that is ultimately what they are trying to prevent. [/quote]
It is my belief that Straban officials care more about what outside influence wants (ie. Civil War preservationists) than the people who live, work and breathe here.
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Post by Alex Oreilly on Sept 6, 2013 15:27:00 GMT -5
Redlock, start one yourself, if Al Ferranto can do it in Cumberland Township anyone can. I don't think I quite understand the relevancy of the reference to Al Ferranto in regards to my wish. Al Ferranto started the Concerned Citizens of Cumberland Township before he became Supervisor.
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Post by gdaddy on Sept 10, 2013 12:18:22 GMT -5
First, it was not the supervisors, or Wally Davis that made this decision. It was the zoning hearing board that decided and they have their own attorney. Second, but most important, the zoning board has legally, no discretion to grant a variance unless hardship is shown. The hardship cannot be financial and must be pre-existing to the plan. such as a triangular lot not permitting adequate side yards at the point. It can also be a de minimus meaning so small who the heck cares, 6 inches in one tiny area. Otherwise they are NOT legally permitted to grant the variance. The ordinance that requires the parking etc. can be changed, but the it is changed for everyone, those who sell good tools as well as cheap imports. The article stated that the plan was for a yet to be subdivided lot, and they needed variances to make it fit on the new lot. Self imposed hardship. When an ordinance specifies x number of parking spots per 100 square feet of retail area, it is so that if TSC fails and Dollar General wishes to come in, they can, without a zoning fight. I do not care what some folks say, that is not a change of use, retail to retail + same use. You will find that restaurants are by seating, doctor's offices by number of doctors etc. The zoning board in this instance did the right thing and followed the law. If the results are undesirable, change the ordinance, for everyone. (that is the job of all 3 Township boards, Planning, Zoning and Supervisors)
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Post by lifesaver on Sept 10, 2013 15:33:31 GMT -5
First, it was not the supervisors, or Wally Davis that made this decision. It was the zoning hearing board that decided and they have their own attorney. Second, but most important, the zoning board has legally, no discretion to grant a variance unless hardship is shown. The hardship cannot be financial and must be pre-existing to the plan. such as a triangular lot not permitting adequate side yards at the point. It can also be a de minimus meaning so small who the heck cares, 6 inches in one tiny area. Otherwise they are NOT legally permitted to grant the variance. The ordinance that requires the parking etc. can be changed, but the it is changed for everyone, those who sell good tools as well as cheap imports. The article stated that the plan was for a yet to be subdivided lot, and they needed variances to make it fit on the new lot. Self imposed hardship. When an ordinance specifies x number of parking spots per 100 square feet of retail area, it is so that if TSC fails and Dollar General wishes to come in, they can, without a zoning fight. I do not care what some folks say, that is not a change of use, retail to retail + same use. You will find that restaurants are by seating, doctor's offices by number of doctors etc. The zoning board in this instance did the right thing and followed the law. If the results are undesirable, change the ordinance, for everyone. (that is the job of all 3 Township boards, Planning, Zoning and Supervisors) So, by your post it sounds as if overly restrictive ordinances and zoning rules and what is considered an "acceptable" business (good tools as well as cheap imports) is the reason why new businesses have a hard time getting off the ground in Straban. So the solution, in my opinion, is for the residents of Straban who wish to see progress and change in the township should band together and demand a look at the township ordinances and zoning which restrict progress. After all, what might have made sense 30 or 50 years ago may not make much sense now.
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Post by lifesaver on Sept 10, 2013 15:37:59 GMT -5
And don't these supervisors realize that should they let some of these businesses in, they will be paying taxes? ... and creating jobs, and saving people time and money by providing services closer to home... gdaddy does make a valid point. The starting point to create change does not start with the supervisors. It starts with the planning commission and zoning commission for the township.
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Post by gdaddy on Sept 10, 2013 20:29:26 GMT -5
It can actually start with any of those boards, but the start really has to be people willing to serve on those boards who do not have an axe to grind, yeh, HARB, I am talking about you. People who say lets just do this right, and fairly. Bitch and I'll chuckle serve honorably and I will salute.
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davew
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Post by davew on Sept 11, 2013 9:35:50 GMT -5
It would seem the problem here is the board has no authority to grant a variance, and whoever does isn't mentioned. So grant the board authority to grant variances and the problem is solved. It doesn't have to be a scorched earth "you can only change the ordinances and that means everyone will get everything that you allow to anyone". If that was the answer, there would be no such thing as a variance in any other township. Give the zoning board the authority to grant variances.
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Post by Venter on Sept 11, 2013 12:39:23 GMT -5
... or at least give them the opportunity to SUGGEST a Variance to the Supervisors/Council.
The Supervisors/Councilmen will have the final say.
By definition alone, you would think that a "Variance" is specific to a particular site. If not, why is there even such a thing as a "Variance" - something that varies from the standard allowable ordinance?
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Post by paulkellett on Sept 11, 2013 17:00:45 GMT -5
Here it is in the PA Municipalities Planning Code, The law which all boards are subject to.
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Post by Venter on Sept 12, 2013 8:44:43 GMT -5
Paul, "Location" means everything to a business like Tractor Supply. Sure, they can find a property that is better suited to their "footprint", but it wouldn't be at that location. If it were only that easy. Hell, like I said, I'd LOVE to see them come West to Cumberland Township.
Sure, as someone mentioned, "Bob Monahan can sell them more land" - but that STILL doesn't guarantee that their plans will be accepted in a satisfactory manner. And WHY would it be necessary to take on additional burden and expense of more Real Estate, if a Variance can remedy the situation? And consider if Monahan sells the Land to them, and because of that unnecessary lopping off of property, the NEXT Project comes up few acres
Location is "God-Given", Regulations are "Man-Made". In Straban, you'd think that BOTH are "God-Given"!
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Post by philliesfan on Sept 12, 2013 9:04:56 GMT -5
I recently completed a survey for Adams County and basically it was dealing with various ways to bring in more revenue to the county and provide new business ventures and employment. Then along comes situations like the TSC issue which is exactly what the survey is trying to address. Over the years that I have resided in the area I have heard many rumors from fairly reliable sources about businesses that have been chased away from the area for one reason or another; of course there is the super Walmart fiasco, once upon a time it was rumored that we were getting a Target, then there was reportedly a Taco Bell coming to town in Straban Township, there was a Bob Evans also coming to town somewhere to the rear of Sheetz and there was a Cracker Barrel proposed out near the outlets somewhere but that also fell through due to the "red tape". Youn constantly hear comments about keeping jobs close to home and also about bringing in new business ventures yet it never seems to happen. It's a wonder why local residents travel to Hanover, Waynesboro or Chambersburg to shop!
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davew
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Post by davew on Sept 12, 2013 9:10:41 GMT -5
Cracker barrel would make money hand over fist in straban. It probably would at the outlets, too, but it would do better somewhere along 30.
This whole situation reminds me of what was going on when I was still living there - the county said they wanted good jobs to come in for residents. They didn't want the retail type of jobs (too lowly for them at the time), they fought with plants that wanted to locate there because they didn't think they paid enough, and they didn't want warehouses in the 15/30 corridor because they didn't want the extra traffic.
It seemed like maybe they were hoping for executive skyscrapers or something where everyone arrived at work via helicopter or teleportation.
I don't live in the area any more because, well, they basically have no economic sense and I couldn't get a decent job around there. It was pretty easy to find work once I left.
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Post by Venter on Sept 12, 2013 9:54:10 GMT -5
Cracker barrel would make money hand over fist in straban. It probably would at the outlets, too, but it would do better somewhere along 30. This whole situation reminds me of what was going on when I was still living there - the county said they wanted good jobs to come in for residents. They didn't want the retail type of jobs (too lowly for them at the time), they fought with plants that wanted to locate there because they didn't think they paid enough, and they didn't want warehouses in the 15/30 corridor because they didn't want the extra traffic. It seemed like maybe they were hoping for executive skyscrapers or something where everyone arrived at work via helicopter or teleportation. I don't live in the area any more because, well, they basically have no economic sense and I couldn't get a decent job around there. It was pretty easy to find work once I left. Davew, Just like I've said many times before: We pay well for our kids' education in Gettysburg. I think the kids come out of High School with a good education. They then go to a College out of town, and further educate themselves... Then they STAY AWAY! There's nothing here for them. We have a Brain-Drain, and it's sad to see. Maybe the Feds need to bring us jobs? More Federal Agencies or State Agencies locating to Gettysburg? Instead of the Retirees from those jobs moving here to Gettysburg, we could keep the kids here to make a living. We have an FCC Hub, why not more of the same sort of employment? If you don't want "Factories", then why not Office Parks?
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Post by buckeye on Sept 12, 2013 11:59:02 GMT -5
There's an article in today's (9/12) "Gettysburg Times" by Duane Kanagy regarding the difficulty in attracting businesses to locate in the Adams County Commerce Park. I wondered, does he read the paper he writes articles for? The paper, and this forum, is full of stories about businesses trying to locate in Adams County only to give up and locate elsewhere because of the bureaucratic nightmare known as "the approval process". As was already pointed out, Adams County offers few, if any, opportunities for college grads unless you are: 1)a doctor, 2)a lawyer, or 3)school teacher. Even many of those working in the service industry must look outside the county for employment. Earlier in this discussion it was suggested the "preservationists" may be exerting pressure on Straban and other townships in keeping development out. Not so long ago, this area appeared to have not only an appreciation for it's past, but also a realization that in order to remain a vibrant community it must also look to the future. Those making decisions now seem to be focused only on preserving the status quo - and stagnation.
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davew
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Post by davew on Sept 13, 2013 7:14:32 GMT -5
I don't think there's anything wrong with them trying to attract federal jobs. Federal jobs bring employees with health coverage, retirement, good current income, etc.
I do differ on the opinion of the schools, though, and the rankings tell the story pretty well (gettysburg is somewhere around the top of the bottom third schools in the state - somewhere around 60% to 2/3rds of all of the high schools are better). All of the public schools in adams county stink given the tax base, and it becomes immediately apparent even at a college like Penn State, that you're behind everyone except the students that come from the most rural and poor areas - and there are a lot of those areas in PA that are poor - it should be the local schools' goal to not be that low.
The causes for that vary, but the interesting thing is, living out here in Western PA, out of 650 schools in the last ranking list I saw, my district is around #95 or something. Gettysburg was around #400. People constantly say to me "you're going to move out of there before your kids are old enough for school, right?". I think it's a silly question given it's miles better than the Gettysburg district with about the same average house value or maybe a little less than gettysburg has. People here who have the means to move to a school district in the top 20 think it's unconsionable that I wouldn't consider it vital. I did, after all, make it thus far in life having gone to school #400.
When it comes to public schools, every local school district does a lot to try to convince everyone they're better than they are. I've seen members of the detroit public school system (which may be the worst there is) saying that they believe people would move to detroit to get into the public school system there - and they say it as if they actually believe it.
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Post by paulkellett on Sept 13, 2013 7:19:06 GMT -5
Venter, I was only citing the applicable state law. As Gdaddy pointed out, the key here is to write the zoning law in a manner that allows for some wiggle room. Conditional use hearings are a good way to have such wiggle room. They too, are unfortunately, not a cure all. These hearings, often abused locally by neighbors are to have criteria that is to be met to accommodate the use. There is no legal way to keep out a business that is unpopular (read say casino) and yet allow the ones every one finds cute, (read Boyd's Bears) for example. Just because you find the cheap quality of the tools offensive, does not mean that you can keep them out of the township. I have always felt strongly that if the ordinance says you can do it, you should be allowed, the shame is on the municipality for not working on the ordinance prior to the application to prevent or even heaven forbid enable that business to come to your township.
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davew
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Post by davew on Sept 13, 2013 7:21:53 GMT -5
To be fair, I just looked up the most recent rankings I can find (and they all vary based on what they rank) and gettysburg moved up 102 spots in one year from the prior year to #272 out of #676, so there is either a lot of variability in the rankings, or the schools in the middle of the pack are pretty close together. The # of schools is greater than I remember from several years ago, but maybe there are more charter schools or something.
Still, though, it was clear that I was pretty far behind any of the kids that came from schools like Cumberland Valley, mechanicsburg, etc, and especially the suburban and outer suburban schools from Pittsburgh, Allentown/Bethlehem, philadelphia, etc.
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