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Post by SpellChecker on Apr 17, 2014 18:11:41 GMT -5
I know 6 different couples that have retired to Gettysburg, all from states to the south, but most from Maryland. My sample size is bigger than Spellchecker's so he must be wrong. 6 people is a long way from 200 per year.
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Post by Alex Oreilly on Apr 17, 2014 21:50:01 GMT -5
The Taxpayers that are going to fund this project are the ones that live in the Development and no one is handing over $40 million, a private bond will be issued and investors can choose on their own to buy the bonds and they will be repaid by the taxpayers of this development. And when I mentioned Paul's name to other Realators, they just kind of groan and sigh Paul Kellet. Alex, First, it is Realtor, not Realators, Second, my name is Kellett, not Kellet, but heck if you have no facts to back up your opinions, misspell personal attacks. Funny, I feel that good government is not just the government that is good for my wallet. So, with a groan and a sigh- tell me where I am wrong. Otherwise, this board deteriorates very quickly in quality with the posts of your caliber. When you take money out of the common pool that is tax revenue, you take it from all taxpayers. If this TIF is approved over $71 million will be taken from that pool. Paul, my apologies for the spelling errors, tired eyes should use spellcheck. Without the TIF this project doesn't happen so no money gets put into the pool, Is it not better to get something then nothing at all? You calculate numbers but only to go against TIF, if this project doesn't get the TIF then the Developer can put in 1000 homes there with no TIF and no age restrictions, no community center and other common areas and 1500-2000 kids get added to the school district and then your school taxes and local taxes go up.
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moose
Post Master
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Post by moose on Apr 19, 2014 5:42:49 GMT -5
Without the TIF this project doesn't happen so no money gets put into the pool, Is it not better to get something then nothing at all? I want growth, but not at any cost! In this case it'd be better to get nothing at all. Once our millions of dollars are happily handed over to this developer and the Pennsylvania Legislature enacts school tax property reform, our money is gone forever. This limited liability company will default on its obligation and the taxpayer gets stuck again. We can add TIF to the following attachment in my humble opinion: corporate_welfare.pdf (258.29 KB)
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Post by lifesaver on Apr 19, 2014 16:49:50 GMT -5
Without the TIF this project doesn't happen so no money gets put into the pool, Is it not better to get something then nothing at all? I want growth, but not at any cost! In this case it'd be better to get nothing at all. Once our millions of dollars are happily handed over to this developer and the Pennsylvania Legislature enacts school tax property reform, our money is gone forever. This limited liability company will default on its obligation and the taxpayer gets stuck again. We can add TIF to the following attachment in my humble opinion: Not how I see it moose. School tax will still be collected, but in a different way, probably a better way, because it will affect everyone, not just those owning property. I see it as impetus to attract more development and economic opportunities to the area, so our tax dollars stay HERE! Having said that, I don't think that this means Adams County will be turned into a parking lot. Smart development, planning and preservation will prevent that from happening. And having said that, we need to have smart people making those decisions, which means we should cast our votes wisely.
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Post by Mr Blonde on Apr 19, 2014 22:15:26 GMT -5
6 people is a long way from 200 per year.
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Post by paulkellett on Apr 20, 2014 10:28:56 GMT -5
Alex, you are right, I am opposed to any TIF financing without a really good reason. As I have said those reasons would be to get industry here, not giving an advantage to one developer over another. The Preserves at Cumberland Village ( a 55+ community) just started phase 2, and guess what? It is not age restricted anymore. Sales were that slow. Now I hear and I have heard the 35% of something is better than 100% of nothing argument, and I disagree. Not because I am save every inch of ground, but for the same reason some Realtors might sigh and groan at my name. At the height of the real estate craze, I had quite a number of people come to me an say "I want to buy a house I am qualified for $250,000. I am ready to go- sell me a house now." I would ask -well, where do you live now? Renting, what is your rent? $800. well, how much have you saved up to put down on this house? Zero? Ahh, but the bank will give you 100% financing? Well, how are you going to make $2,000.a month payments when you have saved zero at $800 a month, why not come back in 3 months when you have $3600 saved up,and you still feel comfortable with the $2,000 a month payment and we will find you a house. Well, they all (mostly)went to other Realtors, bought houses and I have only seen them since in the foreclosure notices. You can say I was stupid, I could have made all those commissions, why should I care if they didn't have a clue that their financial situation could not afford a $250K house? Similarly, YOU ARE RIGHT, taxpayers will not be "on the hook" if these TIF bonds fail. Why should I care if that wonderful clubhouse, the envy of all 55+ communities north of the Villages goes into foreclosure? The school district will still get its 1/3 from the cry babies living there whining that they were promised a community center,etc. and now are living in a weed covered junk heap that is a failed development (unless you think that green sewer pipe that has been up there for 10 years is wonderful landscape architecture). What should the Township say to them when the residents of Discovery come and complain that the community has failed and that they feel lied to? I know, Straban should just say LISTEN- 1/3 of something is better than 100% of nothing. Suckers.
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Post by SpellChecker on Apr 20, 2014 12:56:26 GMT -5
6 people is a long way from 200 per year. 6 whole people huh?
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Post by Mr Blonde on Apr 21, 2014 8:11:06 GMT -5
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davew
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Post by davew on Apr 21, 2014 9:05:16 GMT -5
Not how I see it moose. School tax will still be collected, but in a different way, probably a better way, because it will affect everyone, not just those owning property. I see it as impetus to attract more development and economic opportunities to the area, so our tax dollars stay HERE! Having said that, I don't think that this means Adams County will be turned into a parking lot. Smart development, planning and preservation will prevent that from happening. And having said that, we need to have smart people making those decisions, which means we should cast our votes wisely. Right now, school taxes are extracted based on property ownership. If you take away the ability to tax property, what else of the retirees are you going to tax? The whole issue with school taxes based on property *is* that they extract money from retirees. The tax will shift to income-based or consumption-based, and probably be allocated based on school enrollment. Which will leave the school high and dry in this case because the community won't allocate any kids to the schools. I'm still inclined to agree with moose and paul, the advertising of this community as being no risks is not no risks, it's "not of this type" when a select set is mentioned. Not of a known subset of risks is a lot different than "not of any risk".
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moose
Post Master
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Post by moose on Apr 21, 2014 16:48:10 GMT -5
Right now, school taxes are extracted based on property ownership. If you take away the ability to tax property, what else of the retirees are you going to tax? The whole issue with school taxes based on property *is* that they extract money from retirees. The tax will shift to income-based or consumption-based, and probably be allocated based on school enrollment. Which will leave the school high and dry in this case because the community won't allocate any kids to the schools. I'm still inclined to agree with moose and paul, the advertising of this community as being no risks is not no risks, it's "not of this type" when a select set is mentioned. Not of a known subset of risks is a lot different than "not of any risk". davew, I'd rather be wrong than right in this case. I don't want to be in a 'I told you so' mode down the road. If that happens, we all lost.
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Post by Alex Oreilly on Apr 21, 2014 20:44:07 GMT -5
Pennsylvania has been talking about property tax reform for years now and nothing has really changed. We can not sit here as a County and wait and say well the State may do this or that before we try to do something. We need to start some economic incentatives now.
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Post by Alex Oreilly on Apr 21, 2014 20:56:24 GMT -5
Alex, you are right, I am opposed to any TIF financing without a really good reason. As I have said those reasons would be to get industry here, not giving an advantage to one developer over another. The Preserves at Cumberland Village ( a 55+ community) just started phase 2, and guess what? It is not age restricted anymore. Sales were that slow. Now I hear and I have heard the 35% of something is better than 100% of nothing argument, and I disagree. Not because I am save every inch of ground, but for the same reason some Realtors might sigh and groan at my name. At the height of the real estate craze, I had quite a number of people come to me an say "I want to buy a house I am qualified for $250,000. I am ready to go- sell me a house now." I would ask -well, where do you live now? Renting, what is your rent? $800. well, how much have you saved up to put down on this house? Zero? Ahh, but the bank will give you 100% financing? Well, how are you going to make $2,000.a month payments when you have saved zero at $800 a month, why not come back in 3 months when you have $3600 saved up,and you still feel comfortable with the $2,000 a month payment and we will find you a house. Well, they all (mostly)went to other Realtors, bought houses and I have only seen them since in the foreclosure notices. You can say I was stupid, I could have made all those commissions, why should I care if they didn't have a clue that their financial situation could not afford a $250K house? Similarly, YOU ARE RIGHT, taxpayers will not be "on the hook" if these TIF bonds fail. Why should I care if that wonderful clubhouse, the envy of all 55+ communities north of the Villages goes into foreclosure? The school district will still get its 1/3 from the cry babies living there whining that they were promised a community center,etc. and now are living in a weed covered junk heap that is a failed development (unless you think that green sewer pipe that has been up there for 10 years is wonderful landscape architecture). What should the Township say to them when the residents of Discovery come and complain that the community has failed and that they feel lied to? I know, Straban should just say LISTEN- 1/3 of something is better than 100% of nothing. Suckers. Paul, I agree that banks were loaning money out to people who couldn't pay for their house but that is personal responsibility on the homeowner if you try to buy a house you cant afford and lose it. At the same time the bank should have never been loaning that money that was just stupidity on their part. But since the house booming, the banks are a lot stricter with how they loan money. If the Developers are not selling the homes as fast as what they think they will then the bonds will get restructured with the private investors and they will get their money back a little slower then what they originally thought but that is the private investors risk not the Township or County Taxpayers.
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Post by paulkellett on Apr 22, 2014 6:50:50 GMT -5
Alex, the "restructuring" means that this 1/3 tax rate continues on for more than 20 years. Compounding interest quickly makes it impossible to repay the bonds because the amount of the payment is set by the property tax being collected. To repay the $40 million bond, there needs to be 1,324 homes sold on schedule (i.e. at 200 homes a year) Sales figures of much less than that make the interest compound and soon 2,000 homes will not cover the payments. My point is that default and foreclosure are never pretty, regardless of who ends up holding the bag.
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Post by Alex Oreilly on Apr 22, 2014 18:27:13 GMT -5
Alex, the "restructuring" means that this 1/3 tax rate continues on for more than 20 years. Compounding interest quickly makes it impossible to repay the bonds because the amount of the payment is set by the property tax being collected. To repay the $40 million bond, there needs to be 1,324 homes sold on schedule (i.e. at 200 homes a year) Sales figures of much less than that make the interest compound and soon 2,000 homes will not cover the payments. My point is that default and foreclosure are never pretty, regardless of who ends up holding the bag. Paul, who said if the bonds do have to be restructured that it would take another twenty years and how do you know what the new deal would be? What if the development starts out slow and then takes off really well and it only takes 25 years to repay the bond. Your numbers are pure speculation and guesses.
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Post by paulkellett on Apr 22, 2014 18:54:55 GMT -5
Alex, any discussion of future events is always "pure speculation and guesses" The numbers I have given are not guesses,I asked how much the bond interest rate was going to be at the meeting (6.5%) figured out the property tax on a $289,000 home ( average sales price from meeting) and calculated what 65% of that property tax would be,at current tax rates, and how much a $40 million mortgage payment would be over 20 years. Then you just figure out how many of those $289,000. homes have to be sold to pay that mortgage. BORING yes, speculation no. It is just math
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Dexter
Supreme Poster
Posts: 261
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Post by Dexter on Apr 22, 2014 19:01:03 GMT -5
Alex, the "restructuring" means that this 1/3 tax rate continues on for more than 20 years. Compounding interest quickly makes it impossible to repay the bonds because the amount of the payment is set by the property tax being collected. To repay the $40 million bond, there needs to be 1,324 homes sold on schedule (i.e. at 200 homes a year) Sales figures of much less than that make the interest compound and soon 2,000 homes will not cover the payments. My point is that default and foreclosure are never pretty, regardless of who ends up holding the bag. Paul, who said if the bonds do have to be restructured that it would take another twenty years and how do you know what the new deal would be? What if the development starts out slow and then takes off really well and it only takes 25 years to repay the bond. Your numbers are pure speculation and guesses. And so are all the numbers given by the developer!!!!!!!
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Post by lifesaver on Apr 22, 2014 19:37:44 GMT -5
Paul, who said if the bonds do have to be restructured that it would take another twenty years and how do you know what the new deal would be? What if the development starts out slow and then takes off really well and it only takes 25 years to repay the bond. Your numbers are pure speculation and guesses. And so are all the numbers given by the developer!!!!!!! Not at all Dexter, for those numbers and projections are supported by success stories from similar developments around the country.
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Post by lifesaver on Apr 22, 2014 19:53:09 GMT -5
Alex, the "restructuring" means that this 1/3 tax rate continues on for more than 20 years. Compounding interest quickly makes it impossible to repay the bonds because the amount of the payment is set by the property tax being collected. To repay the $40 million bond, there needs to be 1,324 homes sold on schedule (i.e. at 200 homes a year) Sales figures of much less than that make the interest compound and soon 2,000 homes will not cover the payments. My point is that default and foreclosure are never pretty, regardless of who ends up holding the bag. Paul, if what you say is true, and I don't believe that it is, then TIF financing is a bad idea no matter how you look at it. Concerning your recent post about bank loans and mortgages, the fault clearly lies with the unscrupulous lenders and the stupidity of people who clearly had no clue what they were getting into when they believed they could afford that amount of mortgage payment. As a result, we had a housing crash. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to predict that would have happened. So now, as a result, it's like pulling teeth to get a mortgage these days even with an excellent credit score. As far as questioning potential clients as to if they can really afford to take up your valuable time to look at a property, I believe that belongs in the "none of your business" department. Once, when looking to buy a new vehicle, I was speaking to a salesperson when the conversation clearly turned to "can you afford this?". Needless to say, with that, the business association ended then.
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Post by diogenes on Apr 22, 2014 21:36:20 GMT -5
Lifesaver...you've crossed over to an ad hominen attack...stick to the subject and leave the personal attacks out of it.
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Post by lifesaver on Apr 23, 2014 2:47:03 GMT -5
Lifesaver...you've crossed over to an ad hominen attack...stick to the subject and leave the personal attacks out of it. . Not sure I understand who I was "attacking". Could you explain?
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Dexter
Supreme Poster
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Post by Dexter on Apr 23, 2014 6:34:37 GMT -5
LS: I am amazed at how willing you are to accept the speculation of the person who has the most vested interest in this project. And yes, it is speculation. Cite anything you want, but, the bottom line: he is hoping to be as successful here as he has been elsewhere. Do you suspect that he is a little concerned about his speculations, thus, the request for a TIF? I know, I know, I need to listen to this developer spout his dog and pony show and then I'll be converted......
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Post by lifesaver on Apr 23, 2014 9:15:08 GMT -5
LS: I am amazed at how willing you are to accept the speculation of the person who has the most vested interest in this project. And yes, it is speculation. Cite anything you want, but, the bottom line: he is hoping to be as successful here as he has been elsewhere. Do you suspect that he is a little concerned about his speculations, thus, the request for a TIF? I know, I know, I need to listen to this developer spout his dog and pony show and then I'll be converted...... No Dexter, I'll tell you the same thing I told spellchecker. If you want to hate the project that's fine. At least make it an informed hatred.
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Dexter
Supreme Poster
Posts: 261
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Post by Dexter on Apr 23, 2014 12:42:13 GMT -5
I am pretty sure I have never stated anywhere that I hated the project??? I simply don't think it should get TIF. Plain and simple.
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Post by lifesaver on Apr 23, 2014 15:03:04 GMT -5
I am pretty sure I have never stated anywhere that I hated the project??? I simply don't think it should get TIF. Plain and simple. Sorry Dexter, maybe poor choice of words. It's possible to oppose TIF and still support the project, that point has been clearly made in the presentations I have attended. That is why I feel that you are uninformed. Do I wish it would happen without TIF? Sure I do. But I also understand first hand how hard it is to get banks to give up money these days, even with excellent credit ratings, and a proven track record like this developer has. From what I've learned I don't think that Discovery and the Crossroads Project, which is also hinging on TIF to get off the ground, is something that we should let pass by. I've also learned that there is a TON of misinformation out there, most of it thinly veiled arguments against all progress in Adams County. If you have questions or issues with what they are presenting they WELCOME you to come and ask those questions. So, Dexter, think about coming to the next presentation, ask your questions, then decide whether you want to support this or not. What do you have to lose?
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Post by lifesaver on Apr 23, 2014 15:05:33 GMT -5
LS: I am amazed at how willing you are to accept the speculation of the person who has the most vested interest in this project. And yes, it is speculation. Cite anything you want, but, the bottom line: he is hoping to be as successful here as he has been elsewhere. Do you suspect that he is a little concerned about his speculations, thus, the request for a TIF? Not even a little bit.
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