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Post by Alex Oreilly on Apr 23, 2014 21:47:35 GMT -5
LS: I am amazed at how willing you are to accept the speculation of the person who has the most vested interest in this project. And yes, it is speculation. Cite anything you want, but, the bottom line: he is hoping to be as successful here as he has been elsewhere. Do you suspect that he is a little concerned about his speculations, thus, the request for a TIF? Not even a little bit. So Paul's numbers are speculation, Discovery Gettysburg's numbers are speculation, Crossroads numbers speculation, Dave Levan's numbers were speculation so I guess that means that we can never have any new business in Adams County or anywhere.
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Post by Mr Blonde on Apr 23, 2014 23:13:08 GMT -5
Lifesaver...you've crossed over to an ad hominen attack...stick to the subject and leave the personal attacks out of it.
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Dexter
Supreme Poster
Posts: 261
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Post by Dexter on Apr 24, 2014 5:47:55 GMT -5
So Paul's numbers are speculation, Discovery Gettysburg's numbers are speculation, Crossroads numbers speculation, Dave Levan's numbers were speculation so I guess that means that we can never have any new business in Adams County or anywhere. But Alex, there is a big difference between speculating on a business venture when you are using taxpayers money to do it!
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Post by Alex Oreilly on Apr 24, 2014 19:26:59 GMT -5
So Paul's numbers are speculation, Discovery Gettysburg's numbers are speculation, Crossroads numbers speculation, Dave Levan's numbers were speculation so I guess that means that we can never have any new business in Adams County or anywhere. But Alex, there is a big difference between speculating on a business venture when you are using taxpayers money to do it! But your not using Taxpayers money, the bond is going to be bought by private investors not a government body.
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Post by Alex Oreilly on Apr 24, 2014 19:33:38 GMT -5
Lifesaver...you've crossed over to an ad hominen attack...stick to the subject and leave the personal attacks out of it. Mr. Blonde, Lifesaver did not personally attack Paul, she was giving him an example of what she would do if she went to someone who she wanted to buy something and they asked if she could afford it. big difference.
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Post by lifesaver on Apr 24, 2014 20:39:45 GMT -5
Mr. Blonde, Lifesaver did not personally attack Paul, she was giving him an example of what she would do if she went to someone who she wanted to buy something and they asked if she could afford it. big difference. Alex, thanks for the support, but I think that was the point Mr. Blonde was making.
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Post by SpellChecker on Apr 25, 2014 10:56:24 GMT -5
And so are all the numbers given by the developer!!!!!!! Not at all Dexter, for those numbers and projections are supported by success stories from similar developments around the country. I hate to break this to you but "projections supported by success stories from similar ......." are also pure speculation, hence why it is called a projection. Just because something happened some where else in a certain set of circumstances does not mean it will happen some where else under a DIFFERENT set of circumstances.
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Post by paulkellett on Apr 25, 2014 15:11:30 GMT -5
Lifesaver, once again, point to a single community north of the South, that has sold 200 homes a year. I checked this developers current projects and not one has sold anywhere close to 200/year. As you say- he does have a proven track record, and that record says he just doesn't sell 200 homes a year. Yes, I know in the past he has not had $40 million of taxpayer money to build a fancy clubhouse etc. but taxpayer should not be what makes a development succeed over another one. The numbers I give I can walk any one through, I have tried hard to use the developer's numbers (sale price, interest rate etc.are all his numbers) and the tax revenue comes from just figuring out what the tax would be on a $285,000 home. TIF financing works if the grant money were smaller or the project was worth more*. * read the TIF ACT and can any one guess what the asterisk is for?
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Post by lifesaver on Apr 25, 2014 18:29:01 GMT -5
Lifesaver, once again, point to a single community north of the South, that has sold 200 homes a year. I checked this developers current projects and not one has sold anywhere close to 200/year. As you say- he does have a proven track record, and that record says he just doesn't sell 200 homes a year. Yes, I know in the past he has not had $40 million of taxpayer money to build a fancy clubhouse etc. but taxpayer should not be what makes a development succeed over another one. The numbers I give I can walk any one through, I have tried hard to use the developer's numbers (sale price, interest rate etc.are all his numbers) and the tax revenue comes from just figuring out what the tax would be on a $285,000 home. TIF financing works if the grant money were smaller or the project was worth more*. * read the TIF ACT and can any one guess what the asterisk is for? I believe that Discovery has the potential to be The Villages of the North. On a much smaller scale of course. Time will tell. Personally I find it interesting that you don't challenge the Discovery team with your observations at the informational meetings. Wonder why that is? I've never seen them shy away from the hard questions.
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Post by lifesaver on Apr 25, 2014 18:43:19 GMT -5
Not at all Dexter, for those numbers and projections are supported by success stories from similar developments around the country. I hate to break this to you but "projections supported by success stories from similar ......." are also pure speculation, hence why it is called a projection. Just because something happened some where else in a certain set of circumstances does not mean it will happen some where else under a DIFFERENT set of circumstances. Thanks for that profound statement. It changes my whole outlook on life. Sarcasm off.
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Post by lifesaver on Apr 25, 2014 20:00:46 GMT -5
Lifesaver, once again, point to a single community north of the South, that has sold 200 homes a year. I checked this developers current projects and not one has sold anywhere close to 200/year. As you say- he does have a proven track record, and that record says he just doesn't sell 200 homes a year. Yes, I know in the past he has not had $40 million of taxpayer money to build a fancy clubhouse etc. but taxpayer should not be what makes a development succeed over another one. The numbers I give I can walk any one through, I have tried hard to use the developer's numbers (sale price, interest rate etc.are all his numbers) and the tax revenue comes from just figuring out what the tax would be on a $285,000 home. TIF financing works if the grant money were smaller or the project was worth more*. * read the TIF ACT and can any one guess what the asterisk is for? I believe that Discovery has the potential to be The Villages of the North. On a much smaller scale of course. Time will tell. Personally I find it interesting that you don't challenge the Discovery team with your observations at the informational meetings. Wonder why that is? I've never seen them shy away from the hard questions. Let's put another scenario on the board. The land in question is slated for development. If Discovery doesn't develop it, someone else will. So, to even the playing field, encourage one of the developers who you feel is being unfairly treated to submit a proposal to develop this land and request TIF funding to do it.
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Post by Alex Oreilly on Apr 25, 2014 20:05:36 GMT -5
So if Discovery Gettysburg doesn't get the TIF and doesn't build a retirement community here and decides to put in a 1,000 homes with kids and no community center, how much will the school taxes go up?
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Post by SpellChecker on Apr 26, 2014 7:35:25 GMT -5
I hate to break this to you but "projections supported by success stories from similar ......." are also pure speculation, hence why it is called a projection. Just because something happened some where else in a certain set of circumstances does not mean it will happen some where else under a DIFFERENT set of circumstances. Thanks for that profound statement. It changes my whole outlook on life. Sarcasm off. That's the problem you're not wanting to look at this and take facts to make a decision. You have your mind made up that this place is the holy savior to Gettysburg and every bit of information, even the information that is speculation on the developers part you take as if it was written into stone along side the ten commandments. When you start listening to people like this guy who have everything to gain and nothing to lose and taking everything they say as an absolute you're gonna get duped. It's not his job to tell the bad and he's going to intentionally leave it out or try to sugar coat it. Face it, you have bit hook line and sinker, this guy could tell you he farts lollypops and you would buy it. You or RAVENS GIRL posted some article on facebook where the developer said the state of PA suggested to him that he use TIF to fund this project because this was project was so good for Gettysburg. I asked to see where this was in writing and if it could be made public. I would be curious to see in what context the state suggested to him to use TIF. Is there any word yet if this will be made public?
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Post by SpellChecker on Apr 26, 2014 7:51:39 GMT -5
Lifesaver, once again, point to a single community north of the South, that has sold 200 homes a year. But paul, the developer said he could do it. He had an answer for everything, it all has to be true. lol, golly gee no one would ever exaggerate or lie to get what they want.
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Post by lifesaver on Apr 26, 2014 8:43:41 GMT -5
Thanks for that profound statement. It changes my whole outlook on life. Sarcasm off. That's the problem you're not wanting to look at this and take facts to make a decision. You have your mind made up that this place is the holy savior to Gettysburg and every bit of information, even the information that is speculation on the developers part you take as if it was written into stone along side the ten commandments. When you start listening to people like this guy who have everything to gain and nothing to lose and taking everything they say as an absolute you're gonna get duped. It's not his job to tell the bad and he's going to intentionally leave it out or try to sugar coat it. Face it, you have bit hook line and sinker, this guy could tell you he farts lollypops and you would buy it. You or RAVENS GIRL posted some article on facebook where the developer said the state of PA suggested to him that he use TIF to fund this project because this was project was so good for Gettysburg. I asked to see where this was in writing and if it could be made public. I would be curious to see in what context the state suggested to him to use TIF. Is there any word yet if this will be made public? Changed a few words to see if it sounds familiar. That's the problem, you're not wanting to look a this and take facts to make a decision. You have your mind made up that the casino is the holy savior to Gettysburg, and every bit of information, even the information that is speculation on Dave Levan's part you take as if it was written into stone along side the ten commandments. When you start listening to to people like Dave Levan, who have everything to gain and nothing to lose and taking everything he says as an absolute you're gonna get duped. It's not Dave Levan's job to tell the bad and he's going to intentionally leave it out or try to sugar coat it. Face it, you have bit hook line and sinker, Dave Levan could tell you he farts lollypops and you would buy it. Do you understand how stupid that sounds?The statement was made in response to what was stated in the newspaper article. It clearly stated "suggested" not "told". From my understanding a TIF representative will be at the next meeting. Ask him/her yourself. Don't eat the coleslaw.
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moose
Post Master
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Post by moose on Apr 26, 2014 8:57:38 GMT -5
That's the problem you're not wanting to look at this and take facts to make a decision. You have your mind made up that this place is the holy savior to Gettysburg and every bit of information, even the information that is speculation on the developers part you take as if it was written into stone along side the ten commandments. When you start listening to people like this guy who have everything to gain and nothing to lose and taking everything they say as an absolute you're gonna get duped. It's not his job to tell the bad and he's going to intentionally leave it out or try to sugar coat it. Face it, you have bit hook line and sinker, this guy could tell you he farts lollypops and you would buy it. You or RAVENS GIRL posted some article on facebook where the developer said the state of PA suggested to him that he use TIF to fund this project because this was project was so good for Gettysburg. I asked to see where this was in writing and if it could be made public. I would be curious to see in what context the state suggested to him to use TIF. Is there any word yet if this will be made public? Dave Levan could tell you he farts lollypops and you would buy it. Don't eat the coleslaw. ...or the lollypops!
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Post by SpellChecker on Apr 28, 2014 3:58:29 GMT -5
That's the problem you're not wanting to look at this and take facts to make a decision. You have your mind made up that this place is the holy savior to Gettysburg and every bit of information, even the information that is speculation on the developers part you take as if it was written into stone along side the ten commandments. When you start listening to people like this guy who have everything to gain and nothing to lose and taking everything they say as an absolute you're gonna get duped. It's not his job to tell the bad and he's going to intentionally leave it out or try to sugar coat it. Face it, you have bit hook line and sinker, this guy could tell you he farts lollypops and you would buy it. You or RAVENS GIRL posted some article on facebook where the developer said the state of PA suggested to him that he use TIF to fund this project because this was project was so good for Gettysburg. I asked to see where this was in writing and if it could be made public. I would be curious to see in what context the state suggested to him to use TIF. Is there any word yet if this will be made public? Changed a few words to see if it sounds familiar. That's the problem, you're not wanting to look a this and take facts to make a decision. You have your mind made up that the casino is the holy savior to Gettysburg, and every bit of information, even the information that is speculation on Dave Levan's part you take as if it was written into stone along side the ten commandments. When you start listening to to people like Dave Levan, who have everything to gain and nothing to lose and taking everything he says as an absolute you're gonna get duped. It's not Dave Levan's job to tell the bad and he's going to intentionally leave it out or try to sugar coat it. Face it, you have bit hook line and sinker, Dave Levan could tell you he farts lollypops and you would buy it. Do you understand how stupid that sounds?The statement was made in response to what was stated in the newspaper article. It clearly stated "suggested" not "told". From my understanding a TIF representative will be at the next meeting. Ask him/her yourself. Don't eat the coleslaw. Yes I do see how stupid that sounds. Dave Levan wasn't asking for TIF to get his casino. Casinos make money for the local economy, the casino was a sure win, even the opposition couldn't take that fact from him. Now as Paul kindly keeps reminding you and you conviently keep ignoring. This developer has never sold 200 homes a year. No project like this around here has sold 200 homes a year. this developer is asking for TIF................ Are you seeing the difference? can see why it's stupid to add Dave Levan's name to that? The statement was made in response to what was stated in the newspaper article. It clearly stated "suggested" not "told" You should go back and re read the post again, I never said "told" I said "suggested" but either way I think we all know in which way "suggested" was intended to average joe reading that article be taken! So again I'll ask is this suggestion from the state going to be made public?
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Post by lifesaver on Apr 28, 2014 12:31:51 GMT -5
Changed a few words to see if it sounds familiar. That's the problem, you're not wanting to look a this and take facts to make a decision. You have your mind made up that the casino is the holy savior to Gettysburg, and every bit of information, even the information that is speculation on Dave Levan's part you take as if it was written into stone along side the ten commandments. When you start listening to to people like Dave Levan, who have everything to gain and nothing to lose and taking everything he says as an absolute you're gonna get duped. It's not Dave Levan's job to tell the bad and he's going to intentionally leave it out or try to sugar coat it. Face it, you have bit hook line and sinker, Dave Levan could tell you he farts lollypops and you would buy it. Do you understand how stupid that sounds?The statement was made in response to what was stated in the newspaper article. It clearly stated "suggested" not "told". From my understanding a TIF representative will be at the next meeting. Ask him/her yourself. Don't eat the coleslaw. Yes I do see how stupid that sounds. Dave Levan wasn't asking for TIF to get his casino. Casinos make money for the local economy, the casino was a sure win, even the opposition couldn't take that fact from him. Now as Paul kindly keeps reminding you and you conviently keep ignoring. This developer has never sold 200 homes a year. No project like this around here has sold 200 homes a year. this developer is asking for TIF................ Are you seeing the difference? can see why it's stupid to add Dave Levan's name to that? You should go back and re read the post again, I never said "told" I said "suggested" but either way I think we all know in which way "suggested" was intended to average joe reading that article be taken! So again I'll ask is this suggestion from the state going to be made public? The only thing that is clear is that you are lacking in the skills to understand sarcasm when you see it. As far as I am aware, there isn't a casino in Adams County. Guess the projections and speculations weren't viewed as good enough by the Board to award the casino license to Adams County. That decision , even though it was supported by the majority of locals, myself included, was beyond our control. Period. This project is different, in MY opinion. And YES, Paul is correct that no developer has sold 200 homes a year in Adams County, nor has this developer at other similar types of developments. From all those farting lollypops I've apparently ingested I really don't see how you can compare a development that is not similar in size, location, and amenities from this developer, or any developer in Adams County to what is proposed for Discovery. You can't be so naive to believe that this developer hasn't already invested a shitload of his own money into this, can you? You are aware that this land in question is slated to be developed aren't you, if not by Discovery, then at some point by another developer? The post where you said they were "told" was your original post on another site. Whatever. That being said, I'm told that a TIF representative will be present at the next meeting. Come and ask them yourself. BTW, if you read the article Paul posted about property tax reform (which I support BTW) you would see that the article is filled with PROJECTIONS on how and why they feel it will work in PA. Maybe they should ask for TIF funding for help pushing it through. I am turning my sarcasm button off now, just so you know.
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Post by Mr Blonde on Apr 28, 2014 12:44:48 GMT -5
Alex, thanks for the support, but I think that was the point Mr. Blonde was making.
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Post by Mr Blonde on Apr 28, 2014 12:47:23 GMT -5
The only thing that is clear is that you are lacking in the skills to understand sarcasm when you see it. As far as I am aware, there isn't a casino in Adams County. Guess the projections and speculations weren't viewed as good enough by the Board to award the casino license to Adams County. That decision , even though it was supported by the majority of locals, myself included, was beyond our control. Period. This project is different, in MY opinion. And YES, Paul is correct that no developer has sold 200 homes a year in Adams County, nor has this developer at other similar types of developments. From all those farting lollypops I've apparently ingested I really don't see how you can compare a development that is not similar in size, location, and amenities from this developer, or any developer in Adams County to what is proposed for Discovery. You can't be so naive to believe that this developer hasn't already invested a shitload of his own money into this, can you? You are aware that this land in question is slated to be developed aren't you, if not by Discovery, then at some point by another developer? The post where you said they were "told" was your original post on another site. Whatever. That being said, I'm told that a TIF representative will be present at the next meeting. Come and ask them yourself. BTW, if you read the article Paul posted about property tax reform (which I support BTW) you would see that the article is filled with PROJECTIONS on how and why they feel it will work in PA. Maybe they should ask for TIF funding for help pushing it through. I am turning my sarcasm button off now, just so you know.
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Post by Fire Marshal Bill on Apr 30, 2014 4:48:57 GMT -5
Not how I see it moose. School tax will still be collected, but in a different way, probably a better way, because it will affect everyone, not just those owning property. I see it as impetus to attract more development and economic opportunities to the area, so our tax dollars stay HERE! Having said that, I don't think that this means Adams County will be turned into a parking lot. Smart development, planning and preservation will prevent that from happening. And having said that, we need to have smart people making those decisions, which means we should cast our votes wisely. Right now, school taxes are extracted based on property ownership. If you take away the ability to tax property, what else of the retirees are you going to tax? The whole issue with school taxes based on property *is* that they extract money from retirees. The tax will shift to income-based or consumption-based, and probably be allocated based on school enrollment. Which will leave the school high and dry in this case because the community won't allocate any kids to the schools. I'm still inclined to agree with moose and paul, the advertising of this community as being no risks is not no risks, it's "not of this type" when a select set is mentioned. Not of a known subset of risks is a lot different than "not of any risk". Just saw on the news that there is a bill in the state, that will eliminate a school tax based on property tax. What will this do to the TIF payback? Maybe this question will come up at the next meeting. Also since Pennsylvania does not tax retirement income, this will be a loss to the school system rather than a gain wouldn’t it? Or maybe the 1 percent increase in the sales tax will help offset this loss.
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Post by lifesaver on Apr 30, 2014 8:46:43 GMT -5
Right now, school taxes are extracted based on property ownership. If you take away the ability to tax property, what else of the retirees are you going to tax? The whole issue with school taxes based on property *is* that they extract money from retirees. The tax will shift to income-based or consumption-based, and probably be allocated based on school enrollment. Which will leave the school high and dry in this case because the community won't allocate any kids to the schools. I'm still inclined to agree with moose and paul, the advertising of this community as being no risks is not no risks, it's "not of this type" when a select set is mentioned. Not of a known subset of risks is a lot different than "not of any risk". Just saw on the news that there is a bill in the state, that will eliminate a school tax based on property tax. What will this do to the TIF payback? Maybe this question will come up at the next meeting. Also since Pennsylvania does not tax retirement income, this will be a loss to the school system rather than a gain wouldn’t it? Or maybe the 1 percent increase in the sales tax will help offset this loss. A few weeks ago paulkellet posted a very informative link to learn about the proposed legislation. Thank you Paul! www.ptcc.us/solution.htm It explains the proposed bill in plain English, and I believe answers the question about TIF funding if the law is passed. Make sure you look at the side links as well. One thing to remember is TIF funding would not be the only long term debt for which the school district would be responsible, and the law explains how those long term debts would be repaid. I support the proposed tax legislation. As the coalition states "No tax should have the power to leave you homeless." If this is passed no one would ever lose their home again simply because they could not afford to pay their property taxes.
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moose
Post Master
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Post by moose on Apr 30, 2014 9:55:35 GMT -5
If this is passed no one would ever lose their home again simply because they could not afford to pay their property taxes. Not necessarily. There are still local taxes and county taxes to satisfy. The bill only addresses school taxes which admittedly is the most burdensome of all the taxes.
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Post by lifesaver on Apr 30, 2014 11:43:57 GMT -5
If this is passed no one would ever lose their home again simply because they could not afford to pay their property taxes. Not necessarily. There are still local taxes and county taxes to satisfy. The bill only addresses school taxes which admittedly is the most burdensome of all the taxes. That is true moose, but looking at my tax bill sitting in front of me that I will be paying today my school tax bill makes up 83% or so of my total tax bill. If I am unable to pay the remaining tax of a few hundred, instead of a few thousand, then I think I have more pressing financial problems and difficulty managing my finances than a tax bill. And if I am understanding the projections correctly based on the info Paul provided, this will more than be offset by the taxes I will be paying on products I purchase as a consumer, and the increase in personal income tax.
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davew
Poster Child
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Post by davew on May 1, 2014 7:37:38 GMT -5
Also since Pennsylvania does not tax retirement income, this will be a loss to the school system rather than a gain wouldn’t it? Or maybe the 1 percent increase in the sales tax will help offset this loss. I think they would end up paying revenue to the school, I was kind of surprised to find that the school wasn't pushing for it. They may not, however, believe the 200 townhouses per year, and they also probably prefer houses with kids in them because that brings additional taxes AND monies from census-based allocations.
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