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Post by ravensgirl21 on Feb 11, 2014 14:32:00 GMT -5
THANK YOU! dcaddy has been able to copy link to here! Now you can find the info you need. TIF
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davew
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Post by davew on Feb 11, 2014 14:32:26 GMT -5
I'd like to summarize this as far as I know it, because like i said, I have no skin in the game, none of it is materially going to affect my relatives (they are well off enough to not care), but I sure do like to see the truth get told, especially when it's with numbers.
So what I see so far is * a project cost projected to be $680 million. * The desire to have a bond floated to cover $60 million of the infrastructure costs * A 28 year payment horizon where at least at the start, 65% of the tax revenue is used to cover the bonds, so the county will expect that they can provide services to the development and as a result of it on 35% of what it would cost elsewhere * The development isn't expected to be fully built for 12-15 years * expectations are 4.5 million county taxes and 12.5 million annual school district taxes in 12-15 yeras, no indication (due to brevity of newspapers probably ) of tax revenue in the interim
Presume that the 65% of tax revenue used to repay bonds is the county tax part only, so a little more than $3 million a year once things are swinging.
What we don't know is when the bonds are floated and payments on them needs to begin. One would suspect that the payments on the bonds would begin before there is enough revenue to offset them, but we don't know because we're not told.
We're also not told who bears the risk if the builder changes their mind or has trouble selling units early on. Could there be a situation where $60 million of infrastructure bonds are floated, a bunch of unnecessary work is done and the township and county residents are on the hook for the costs without the future revenue?
I don't like the TIF at all, but I definitely would want it to be structured so the burden was on the developer to actually build and sell the units to offset the payments made.
If it's 10% of the cost of the development (or a little less), I think the builder should cover it. Straban isn't a blighted area, it's not really appropriate for what TIFs were intended for to begin with.
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Post by ravensgirl21 on Feb 11, 2014 14:37:03 GMT -5
What is known is that the Developer of Discovery Gettysburg has quoted himself, he assumes all the risks!
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davew
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Post by davew on Feb 11, 2014 14:47:28 GMT -5
That doesn't mean much without describing what risks he'd assume. If $30 million of infrastructure improvements occur and the development gets halted, assuming all of the risks means that he would make whole an economic share of the remaining amount, or all of it if no revenue producing properties were made.
If the development goes through, I hope whoever is involved writing the details of the agreement understand risks, cash flows and the time value of money.
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Post by ravensgirl21 on Feb 11, 2014 14:50:26 GMT -5
davew Anyone living here in Adams County potentially has an interest and may want to become part of the development construction and jobs it will create. At this point supporting a project that could potentially bring jobs and revenue to our County is a good thing. Whether a business owner or resident the interest is there. At this time when infrastructure is lacking in this county, this should be a refreshing welcoming news. I do agree however that getting a Super Walmart, Lowes or Home Depot and competitive store like Target would absolutely be a draw for more businesses to want to invest in Adams Co. Whether the community to be built will compliment the shopping center project and help each other is to be seen. I believe they will.
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davew
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Posts: 308
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Post by davew on Feb 11, 2014 14:54:16 GMT -5
Well, until more news about the actual numbers comes out, I'll duck out of it for a while. Development is usually good. Development that is fully paid for by the developer is better.
We have no clue who the builder for these units will be. For all we know, the contractor has subs from maryland lined up to do most everything, perhaps even including ongoing maintenance. And maybe he doesn't, we don't have any idea.
I know if I was going to try to sell a project and be biased while I was doing it, I wouldn't include details like that if they weren't favorable. Those things can come out after the contract deals are on paper and everything is signed - that's how it usually goes. you (figuratively - not you specifically) withhold those details and hope that most of the public has a short memory and doesn't care about something that happened more than 2 hours ago.
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Post by dcaddy on Feb 11, 2014 14:58:09 GMT -5
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Post by ravensgirl21 on Feb 11, 2014 15:09:00 GMT -5
Here is the open disclosure....The developer is committed to hiring LOCAL! I know that for sure from his mouth to God's ears, and those who came to last meeting! davew I understand your points and they are valid.To see the other side of the coin is refreshing. Dr Phil says "no matter how flat the pancake is, it still has 2 sides!" I have concerns as well.We all have. Yet every time a concern is brought up, it gets addressed. Please do yourself a huge favor, come to the Feb 24th meeting! Read the article that dcaddy has posted. Please continue to keep an open mind. Thanks!
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Post by diogenes on Feb 11, 2014 15:30:40 GMT -5
AsI noted several messages ago, I now live in an "over 55" community in Green Valley, AZ. Would recommend all parties look closely at the retirement magazines that are published and consider what makes the "10 best places to retire" fit that description. In addition to the overall climate (it's a dry heat...) high on the list (including taxes and cost of living) are opportunities for intellectual development (e.g., close to or associated with academic institutions), medical facilities ranging from specialists, local hospitals to "end of life" situations, lack of maintenance requirements and -- while not stated as such -- stringent CCR's and their enforcement by Home Owner Associations. In GV's case we have on-site programs with Univ of Arizona, several major medical facilities for access ranging from UofA Medical School to VA to "end of life" facilities, limited size lots with infrastructure well thought out (e.g., no driveway backs out opposite another so no one backs into anoher car which happens to be backing out as well), 50+ pages of codes, covenants, and requirements that are enforced (a pain in the butt but property values are kept high...). Take a close look at Del Webb, DR Horton, and other national builders and compare with what is working and why with what is being suggested. Beware also of similar background type facilities like those in Carlisle that cater to retired military--their appeal is limited to a relative limited number of potential residents. I might note, nearness to Mexico has been a major asset here in keeping maintenance costs down...a large labor pool to draw from and they do an excellent and professional job. A lesson to be learned is that building costs are minor compared to the long-term maintenance costs...regardless of where ever the project is or what it is. Do your homework and check out the assumptions that are being made but not spelled out.
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Post by zapman on Feb 11, 2014 15:30:52 GMT -5
I think the fair thing to do is keep an open mind. If coming to the meeting will help resolve any questions re TIF or the risk involved, then yes, by all means attend. I think will be a good thing and those who do go to it will have a better understanding. Do you vote for a candidate without knowing who, what when? At this point there are questions that are valid, as I have too. You cannot judge the cause without past actions. Does this developer have a great track record? Has his projects all been successful? What risks are involved to the residents? What advantages are expected for the community and school tax relief? ALL, valid, and concerning. I will attend, and hear what they have to say. Also go to Centerville Symphony Homes on the web and see this developers recent project right on the Eastern Shore.Thanks Ravensgirl for info.
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davew
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Post by davew on Feb 11, 2014 17:04:51 GMT -5
Here is the open disclosure....The developer is committed to hiring LOCAL! I know that for sure from his mouth to God's ears, and those who came to last meeting! davew I understand your points and they are valid.To see the other side of the coin is refreshing. Dr Phil says "no matter how flat the pancake is, it still has 2 sides!" I have concerns as well.We all have. Yet every time a concern is brought up, it gets addressed. Please do yourself a huge favor, come to the Feb 24th meeting! Read the article that dcaddy has posted. Please continue to keep an open mind. Thanks! I live 200 miles away. My parents still live about 2 miles away. I just like to analyze things, but I do have an extreme aversion to sales pitches (you might have noticed) without knowing the numbers. I'm not diametrically opposed to all things though if the numbers and assigned risks make sense. The upside of the whole analysis above is that the burden is on the county taxes, but it does appear that the allocation of the school taxes should be good for the district free and clear - at least if one is thinking of it the same way that the article is written. The numbers only make fiscal sense if that 65% of $60 million is based on the $4.5 million county tax....or restated, that the $60 million of debt taken on is financed by about $3.1 million a year for 28 years.
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Post by anonymous on Feb 11, 2014 21:15:33 GMT -5
Re TIF: There is no danger of loss and burden on the taxpayers by the developer asking for TIF.
The above statement is true. The "loss and burden on the taxpayer" occurs when the three agencies give the developer the TIF money. As another poster wrote here, if it's such a good thing, then the developer can pay for the infrastructure costs themselves and raise the price of all those houses by a couple of thousand dollars.
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moose
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Post by moose on Feb 11, 2014 21:35:28 GMT -5
Allow me to play devil's advocate here moose. If I'm misunderstanding something here let me know. The parcel you described is NOT, from what I understand, the site of the proposed development. If you were using it just as an example of the inconsistencies in taxing the people of Adams County then you should disclose that, and I agree, this doesn't seem kosher to me. The site of the proposed development, from what I've been told, is still under contract, it has not been sold. As far as I know under contract doesn't mean a thing to the buyer until the papers are signed, transferring ownership. If you are buying a house not one piece of furniture can go into that house until it's yours. So, if the land is being taxed agricultural or even in clean and green, until the deal is finalized it has nothing to do with the developer as to how much tax the owners pay. Correct? Second, let's assume that all of your points are valid (and I'm not doubting they are). So, to you the solution is to stick it to the developer and deny him/her the chance to build something that has the potential to have a positive effect on growth in Adams County. That's cutting off your nose to spite your face. I think you've got the right idea with Spread the Mustard and holding the commissioner's feet to the fire. Get to the root of the problem, if there is criminal wrongdoing expose it. The parcel I spoke of IS NOT the site of the proposed housing development that Ravensgirl21 is apparently selling. While I did stray from the original topic, the theme is similar: development vs status quo. I'm not against development and I'm not against agricultural land and/or farms. I'm opposed to subsidizing private development using public funds, big government, government officials shoving things down our throat and sticking their noses into our private affairs, and last but not least oppressing a certain group of people to promote someone else's cause. In case you missed an earlier post, our solicitor is very biased and vehemently opposed to development. Here is a scholarly piece authored by him which shows just how biased he is ( digitalcommons.law.villanova.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1176&context=elj). Under his legal advisement for the past dozen years, the county has bent and twisted the law to give the absolute maximum discounts on land that is ten acres or more, despite the written law and/or interpreted law. I doubt the Commissioners even know just how much he has cost the county in lost tax revenue, but they should...because they own it. I can prove that they've violated the law on numerous occasions, ranging from Sunshine Law violations to much grander allegations such as Official Oppression. Of course, the county will challenge my allegations but I've documented many in a court of law. They have YET to enter a counter argument against any of my claims. The parcel cited in my previous post is in the Commerce Center and is bound by it's deed to be developed in four years. It is a commercial property and the deed promises to develop it. The Clean & Green enrollment promises to preserve it. You can't have it both ways. The parcel SHOULD be assessed/taxed as a commercial property. The county doesn't see it the same way as I do. I am going to include my latest Exhibit at the end of this post. I must state here, that in the example cited in my Exhibit, the property owner HAS DONE NOTHING WRONG! He only did what the county assessor allowed him to do and I believe that he represented his property accurately. The Exhibit attached below is a public document, available in the courthouse for a fee. I am hiding nothing and have sworn in this document that the facts are true and correct as I believe them to be. The result of the county's legal interpretation of the parcel(s) in this document has caused a few tax districts to lose out on tax monies that are rightfully theirs. The difference has to be made up by the balance of the non-enrolled real property owners, of those taxing districts. I tried to lay this out as carefully as I could so the average person could see what is happening. You'll have to take some time to study it, but it's not that hard to see. I've been collecting property cards for four years on select parcels around the county. They tell an interesting story. I always urge my readers to make their own minds up after seeing the facts. The calculations within are actually worse than presented because there should have been roll-backs on the ENTIRE parcel. I mistakenly only calculated the roll-back taxes on difference of the separated parcel. Happy reading... spreadthemustard.com/Tax%20Assessment/Exhibit%2037%20-%20Official%20Copy.pdf
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Post by paulkellett on Feb 13, 2014 14:00:01 GMT -5
The points are: Is there a shortage of 55+ housing available in the area? answer: NO, Will the development require government services? YES, Should taxes be waived for some people and not others? My answer- no way. TIF financing on this project would be saying that use some of your taxes to pay for your home. It is a dangerous precedent. Also what happens when less than the needed 250 homes are not sold? the tax revenue will not be there to pay bond holders. YES, I heard government will not be on the hook, but will the development go into foreclosure? what happens to the folks that bought the first few homes? Talk about a chance of blight. I would support TIF financing if it were used to bring industry or tech jobs, but we cannot afford to just forgive every newcomers taxes.
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Dexter
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Post by Dexter on Feb 13, 2014 16:12:29 GMT -5
Well said Paul. If this development is such a great deal and a sure winner for everyone than let the developer find someone else to back his project.
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Post by Alex Oreilly on Feb 13, 2014 18:13:00 GMT -5
Saying that there is no shortage of 55 or older housing in not truly accurate, The 55 or older crowd may decide that they want to move in a community of peers. Therefore, it would be needed.
If the Developer is short of revenue to repay the bond on at anytime then the Developer will be responsible for it.
There is nothing wrong with a business person looking for ways to help them get an new business off the ground so if TIF can get new tax revenue in the area then there is nothing wrong with that.
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Post by diogenes on Feb 13, 2014 20:41:18 GMT -5
Disagree with Paul's comments re 55+ housing. We watched Gettysburg carefully for a couple of years waiting for a single story, 1700+ square feet with a small yard and sidewalks, and minimal distance to travel for shopping for around 175K to show up. Over 55 are looking for simple floor plans, up-to-date utilities in the house, a minimum (like none) of steps, limited yard work, shopping access,and opportunity for creative and/or intellectual activities and diverse neighbors...plus a medical arena that is gerettric-(sp?)oriented. 'Taint there in Adams County...we looked..and eventually moved.
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Post by paulkellett on Feb 13, 2014 20:48:24 GMT -5
Alex, first there are at least two 55+ developments in the area, and they are not selling at a rate of 250 homes a year. second, the developer does not have the money sitting around to repay the bond if they are not selling homes, so saying the developer is responsible is not answering the question. If they do not sell 250 homes, say if they sell 125 a year, (ambitious if you ask me) then there will not be the tax revenue to repay the bond, then what happens? The money has been spent, and what is the collateral? Again, the developer is saying that the development cannot be profitable without taxpayers kicking in. I am just opposed to the inherent unfairness that is they will pay 1/3 of what I do to support the local governments. It is a dangerous precedent and has not been used ever around here for a reason.
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Post by lifesaver on Feb 14, 2014 10:26:50 GMT -5
Alex, first there are at least two 55+ developments in the area, and they are not selling at a rate of 250 homes a year. second, the developer does not have the money sitting around to repay the bond if they are not selling homes, so saying the developer is responsible is not answering the question. If they do not sell 250 homes, say if they sell 125 a year, (ambitious if you ask me) then there will not be the tax revenue to repay the bond, then what happens? The money has been spent, and what is the collateral? Again, the developer is saying that the development cannot be profitable without taxpayers kicking in. I am just opposed to the inherent unfairness that is they will pay 1/3 of what I do to support the local governments. It is a dangerous precedent and has not been used ever around here for a reason. Then I guess you are also opposed to paying school tax when you don't have children using the system? Are you, as a landlord, then OK with footing the bill for the school tax for properties you are renting with school age children, or even if they don't have children? As far as the two 55+ communities in the area I only know of one, and that is a manufactured housing community, not nearly the scale of the proposed development and is not in the target market of this proposal.....apples and oranges. This isn't about the inequity of the taxing system in Pennsylvania, it's about a project that has the potential to boost the economic revenue to Adams County. In my opinion all taxpayers in the county should take the time to learn and become informed about the project, or, we can sit back and allow the conservationists and preservationists to continue to chip away at available properties in our county and guess who helps to support that? I'm not against preservation and conservation by any means, but there has to be a balance between that and economic tax paying revenue.
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Post by paulkellett on Feb 14, 2014 10:55:13 GMT -5
I think if you look at this development www.55places.com/pennsylvania/communities/the-preserves-at-cumberland-village, Thge preserves price range- the same, nice community, no tax breaks given. Units still available, been open several years and has a total of 93 units. I still maintain that 250 units a year sold will not happen, that it gives an unfair advantage over the preserves to this developer as the infrastructure for discovery will be paid for by taxpayers. As you know I did go to the meeting and heard "the facts" and I still have serious concerns.
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Post by ravensgirl21 on Feb 14, 2014 12:21:56 GMT -5
paulkellett.....where did you read 250 homes for next 20 years? First and foremost This Developer has an excellent track record and has been able to market all of the homes with great marketing team and realtors. Second it is 2000 homes of which 200 homes per year to be built over 10, years not 20! The problem here is mis-information and self taught scholars who go on and on without doing the research for this particular development and the developers.You can do comparisons all you want, however this is nothing like the other developments you mention nor is the location as desirable! Needless to say, when you spin all the negatives, it is just a spin. To anyone who wants to hear the actual plans from A to Z before making up your minds, I encourage you to attend the Feb 24th meeting at the Clubhouse in the Links at Gettysburg community at 7 pm Monday...a severe weather date is set for March 3 same time and place.
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Post by lifesaver on Feb 14, 2014 12:24:37 GMT -5
I think if you look at this development www.55places.com/pennsylvania/communities/the-preserves-at-cumberland-village, Thge preserves price range- the same, nice community, no tax breaks given. Units still available, been open several years and has a total of 93 units. I still maintain that 250 units a year sold will not happen, that it gives an unfair advantage over the preserves to this developer as the infrastructure for discovery will be paid for by taxpayers. As you know I did go to the meeting and heard "the facts" and I still have serious concerns. Yes, we both heard the same information. Thanks for providing this link, I was not aware this was a 55+ community. I think a lot of factors should be considered when comparing the two, one of which is whether sales of the homes are on the uptick since the housing market appears to be improving, compared to 2010 when the project was started. And I'm not faulting you for having concerns, none of us should go into this thinking it's going to be a slam dunk for Adams County. I just think that we need to start looking at the big picture here when it comes to Adams County's economic future, and stop shooting ourselves in the foot when someone shows an interest in investing in the economic future of Adams County.
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Post by ravensgirl21 on Feb 14, 2014 12:36:31 GMT -5
The developer has done his homework on this project. He would not be moving fwd if there was a huge risk involved. He has developed over 20,000 homes devoted to 55+. All a huge success! Look at the links above that dcaddy posted re Eve Sun post and info on the newest development in Eastern Shore at Centreville. He has stated he absorbs all the risks. Most important here is that no additional student burden will be added to the schools since this is a 55+ development. I have seen the plans, I have heard the details. This is an opportunity to help get Adams back on the path of moving forward for jobs and millions in revenue used for schools and such. OR would we all just want to continue blindly opening our bank accounts for higher school taxes? Just wondering? COME TO THE MEETING PLEASE! PRO GROWTH! PRO JOBS! PRO OPPORTUNITY!
~~~ Re: Preserves at Cumberland, ......location location location! It is not situated easily accessible, no clubhouse, no performing arts center, no community center, and how many golf courses in the area within 10 mi? ....Not accessible easily without having to go thru Gettysburg and that can be a big deal during events. Discovery Gettysburg will be right off US 15 easily accessible and within 55 miles of D C, Baltimore, Harrisburg, York, Hanover, easily accessible! No comparison here , really!
However, I do agree on one point...we need industry here. Home Depot or Lowe's and Super Walmart as well as a competitive store like Target! Look how Hanover is growing, and Frederick Md. Build it and they will come!
Answer me this....how is Adams going to attract business and industry unless we have a track record of growth? People 55+ will tend to spend money where it is easily accessible to go to the stores. Shop local, eat local, invest local, and perhaps start a small business. Having an attractive community for adults 55+ with all the amenities right off 15, in our beautiful historic county is premium. WE should be excited to have this developer invest here and excited for the positives it will add.
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Post by zapman on Feb 14, 2014 13:06:30 GMT -5
The Evening Sun gives a very detailed description for Discovery Gettysburg Developer and what he is planning and asking for. I have read it and see not one reason this should be turned down. (dcaddy posted it above few posts up) Anything to help prevent recurring rising taxes become the burden, I should already overly burdened residents here, should be a welcomed prospect to keep taxes at bay and provide relief. Not to mention JOBS! Here in ADAMS? What is that?
I also researched Symphony Development Group, Robert H Karen,(www.symphonydevelopmentgroup. robert h karen.com) IMPRESSIVE! I believe as Ravensgirl posted that he has already done his homework here.
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Dexter
Supreme Poster
Posts: 261
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Post by Dexter on Feb 14, 2014 17:23:46 GMT -5
If this guy did his homework and is so good at this than why does he need TIF help? Sorry, something doesn't add up......
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