moose
Post Master
Posts: 184
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Post by moose on Feb 14, 2014 17:37:17 GMT -5
If this guy did his homework and is so good at this than why does he need TIF help? Sorry, something doesn't add up...... Exactly! If this is a foolproof endeavor, let him just do it. Quit riding on the taxpayer coattails! Who can blame him for going into it with his hands out, though? If he can hoodwink us into financing a good portion of it, why wouldn't he try to do so? Ravensgirl is quite the pitchman(woman). She's got something in this, we just don't know what yet. I'm with Paul....there ain't a chance in hell of them selling 250 homes a year. Not burdening the schools is the only positive I see out of this proposal. One question I do have is how do they control who buys? If an over 55 couple buys, then they decide to sell...is it written in the deed or something that they can't sell to younger folks? That narrows down the potential buyer pool significantly.
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Post by ravensgirl21 on Feb 14, 2014 20:09:17 GMT -5
You do realize without TIF this is an impossible endeavor. Come ask him why! As for Ravensgirl having something in this, well, yes I do. JOBS! Lower tax and relief from our taxes being raised, yet again. If this trend continues, we will have to sell our home and move closer to where we already drive to work 2 hours in traffic! We love Adams County and we love the historical Battlefields and people around here. I'm on board without any pay, or promise to have a job. Just like the rest of us have been when supporting other businesses that tried to get approved here. Open your eyes and look around at Frederick County, Hanover, York, Harrisburg, Chambersburg, they are thriving and building and that means jobs, revenue! No one said it was fool proof. Secondly it is not 250 homes per year. IT IS 200 homes per year for 10 years, in a terrific location that is accessible, convienant, and desirable.The developer HAS done all the research and consulting needed to get this project off the ground. He would not consider this if he did not feel comfortable with the demographs and sellability. Lastly adult communities that are set for 55+ by law are not to have children permanently living in the community. So when selling their homes their realtor will only offer to those who meet the guidelines. You go on and on with the negatives and close your minds to any positives, typical mantra here in Adams. Time for growth and new business opportunities wouldn't you agree? Come to the meeting! Get your answers there! Feb 24th 7 pm Mon at the clubhouse at Links at Gettysburg Golf community and resort. End of discussion here.
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davew
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Post by davew on Feb 15, 2014 0:00:41 GMT -5
The Evening Sun gives a very detailed description for Discovery Gettysburg Developer and what he is planning and asking for. I have read it and see not one reason this should be turned down. (dcaddy posted it above few posts up) Anything to help prevent recurring rising taxes become the burden, I should already overly burdened residents here, should be a welcomed prospect to keep taxes at bay and provide relief. Not to mention JOBS! Here in ADAMS? What is that?
I also researched Symphony Development Group, Robert H Karen,(www.symphonydevelopmentgroup. robert h karen.com) IMPRESSIVE! I believe as Ravensgirl posted that he has already done his homework here. Paul just told you exactly why. What if it sells 125 houses a year instead, especially given the track record of other communities. I'd agree with others, I can't see any reason to believe that 200 buyers per year will buy units, and on top of that, the other units already occupied won't siphon off buyers that would've bought new units. The TIF, that's the reason I'd turn it down. I wouldn't want to provide anything, but if I were to, I'd want it to be in the form of reduced taxes for a temporary period. The developer won't like that, but I can't see a reason for the government to hand over dollars to a for profit entity that doesn't need it. And I agree with moose, we don't know what ravensgirl is getting compensated, but it seems unlikely that it's not. If she's not promised a job, etc, it could be: * that she's already being paid to promote the development * she's paid to try to get people into the community meeting * she has a relative or husband who has a job or pending job based on the development, or is related to the developer or someone else involved in the whole situation It would be nice to know what it is, because it seems very unlikely that it's just "oh, because I want to see jobs for other people in the area".
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Post by Alex Oreilly on Feb 15, 2014 0:48:12 GMT -5
The Evening Sun gives a very detailed description for Discovery Gettysburg Developer and what he is planning and asking for. I have read it and see not one reason this should be turned down. (dcaddy posted it above few posts up) Anything to help prevent recurring rising taxes become the burden, I should already overly burdened residents here, should be a welcomed prospect to keep taxes at bay and provide relief. Not to mention JOBS! Here in ADAMS? What is that?
I also researched Symphony Development Group, Robert H Karen,(www.symphonydevelopmentgroup. robert h karen.com) IMPRESSIVE! I believe as Ravensgirl posted that he has already done his homework here. Paul just told you exactly why. What if it sells 125 houses a year instead, especially given the track record of other communities. I'd agree with others, I can't see any reason to believe that 200 buyers per year will buy units, and on top of that, the other units already occupied won't siphon off buyers that would've bought new units. The TIF, that's the reason I'd turn it down. I wouldn't want to provide anything, but if I were to, I'd want it to be in the form of reduced taxes for a temporary period. The developer won't like that, but I can't see a reason for the government to hand over dollars to a for profit entity that doesn't need it. And I agree with moose, we don't know what ravensgirl is getting compensated, but it seems unlikely that it's not. If she's not promised a job, etc, it could be: * that she's already being paid to promote the development * she's paid to try to get people into the community meeting * she has a relative or husband who has a job or pending job based on the development, or is related to the developer or someone else involved in the whole situation It would be nice to know what it is, because it seems very unlikely that it's just "oh, because I want to see jobs for other people in the area". I know who Ravensgirl is and I know that she is not part of this developer in anyway. She was in favor of the Waterpark and Casino proposals and did not have any partnerships in that. She is just someone, who would like to see the County grow and not keep losing land to the land preservationists. Not sure why, you think that just because somebody is really pushing for something that you thing that they are being compensated for their promoting of the product.
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Dexter
Supreme Poster
Posts: 261
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Post by Dexter on Feb 15, 2014 8:50:04 GMT -5
I don't think a housing development is the type of development that govt. should use their incentive powers for. The jobs are temporary, there is way less of a chance for a housing development to expand and grow like a business can. The use of govt. services is way less for a commercial/industrial complex than a housing development. My last comment, I can be opposed to the TIF for this project and not be considered anti-growth.
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davew
Poster Child
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Post by davew on Feb 15, 2014 9:49:38 GMT -5
Not sure why, you think that just because somebody is really pushing for something that you thing that they are being compensated for their promoting of the product. It's the reality of human nature. When someone instantly shows up as a single issue poster and posts similar type things to what's been said, they usually have skin in the game one way or another. There are exceptions, perhaps she is one.
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Post by ravensgirl21 on Feb 15, 2014 10:15:32 GMT -5
Wow, davew I AM NOT BEING PAID TO POST, I'VE NOT BEEN PROMISED ANY JOB TO SUPPORT OR POST, AND I SURE WISH I WAS RELATED TO THE DEVELOPER. NO COMPENSATION HERE. YES, I WANT TO SEE THIS HAPPEN BECAUSE OUR TAXES WENT FROM 1900 TO A WHOPPING 5200. IT INCREASED OUR MORTGAGE 350. THE ASSESSMENT RAISED IT, TRUE, BUT THE SCHOOL TAX REALLY RAISED IT BY 500%. DURING THE PRO CASINO DAYS, I JUMPED ON BOARD FOR THE VERY SAME REASON, AND WAS AVID SUPPORTER FOR IT. TO THIS DAY I HAVE NOT RECEIVED OR HAVE BEEN OFFERED ONE PENNY. I AM A PRETTY HONEST PERSON AND AM PASSIONATE ABOUT ELECTIONS, VOTING FOR THE RIGHT CANDIDATE AFTER DOING RESEARCH. I AM PASSIONATE FOR GROWTH, JOBS AND PROGRESS HERE IN ADAMS COUNTY. THE JOBS WILL NOT BE TEMPORARY.THE REVENUE WILL BE AN ENORMOUS RELIEF TO OUR ALREADY BURDENED TAXES. I ALSO SUPPORT TIF FOR THE SHOPPING CENTER AND NEW STORES. WE NEED A LOWES HERE OR DEPOT AND SUPER WALMART AS WELL AS TARGET.COMPETITIVE STORES MEANS COMPETITIVE PRICES AS WELL AS, J O B S! PUTTING MONEY BACK INTO INFRASTRUCTURE AND INVESTMENTS LOCALLY! THE DEVELOPER HAS A TEAM OF EXPERTS WHO HAVE MADE THEIR STUDIES AND REPORTS. PLEASE LOOK AT HIS MOST RECENT DEVELOPMENT IN CENTREVILLE MD ON THE EASTERN SHORE. THE HOMES ARE SELLING! HE HAS AN EXCELLENT TRACK RECORD. WHY SHOULD I NOT BE EXCITED AND IN SUPPORT OF THIS? THE STUDY AND REPORT SUPPORT THEIR CLAIMS. I SAY TO YOU THIS, EVEN IT IT ONLY CREATES TEMPORARY JOBS FOR 10 YEARS, IS THAT NOT BETTER THAN NO WORK AT ALL? OR, DO YOU BELIEVE IN ENTITLEMENTS? PUTTING GOOD PEOPLE TO WORK LOCALLY IS A GOOD THING.THE JOBS IT WILL CREATE OVERALL AFTER COMPLETION IS PERMANENT. THE SKIN I GOT IN THIS GAME IS HOPING FOR A CHANCE TO WORK LOCALLY INSTEAD OF POUNDING THE ROADS EVERY DAY INTO N. VA, DC AREA. TRY SITTING IN THAT TRAFFIC EVERY MORNING AND EVENING AFTER GETTING UP AT 4 AM. SO, I GUESS IN THAT SENSE, HOPING TO WORK UP HERE IN OUR COUNTY JUST MILES AWAY IS THE SKIN IN THE GAME. AS DEXTER POSTED, HE CAN BE AGAINST TIF BUT NOT AGAINST GROWTH. I RESPECT THAT. WISHING ALL WHO DOUBT IT WOULD COME HEAR DETAILS AND THEN MAKE A BETTER DECISION BASED ON THIS DEVELOPERS VISION. INSULTING AS IT IS TO READ YOUR POST AGAINST ME, I CAN SEE WHY YOU HAVE TREPIDATION AND I WOULD PROBABLY WONDER THE SAME THING. I WILL NOT TAKE IT PERSONALLY.
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Post by paulkellett on Feb 15, 2014 14:04:14 GMT -5
Ravensgirl, I find it funny that you complain about your real estate taxes skyrocketing and then say the solution is to give up tax revenue that is due and owing for 20 years, a real disconnect there. If the developer succeeds with taxpayer money (a point that I am not willing to cede) then other builders will suffer as there are only so many people who wish to move to the area. The folks who buy in Discovery may have bought at the links, the Preserves, Lake Heritage, or a new house at Plank Field. But those houses will be all at a competitive disadvantage as none of them will have a clubhouse etc. paid for by taxpayer money. Similarly, we cannot afford to have every developer saying hey, the only way we can compete is with TIF financing, the only fair thing would be to give them all TIF financing and then watch what happens to your taxes. Increased population brings expenses that are never mentioned, for example, we have a comptroller now because the county grew, we have more judges because our population grew. If a larger population meant lower taxes- then why doesn't New York City have the lowest taxes? The greater the population, the higher the taxes-a simple rule.
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Post by lifesaver on Feb 15, 2014 14:51:45 GMT -5
Ravensgirl, I find it funny that you complain about your real estate taxes skyrocketing and then say the solution is to give up tax revenue that is due and owing for 20 years, a real disconnect there. If the developer succeeds with taxpayer money (a point that I am not willing to cede) then other builders will suffer as there are only so many people who wish to move to the area. The folks who buy in Discovery may have bought at the links, the Preserves, Lake Heritage, or a new house at Plank Field. But those houses will be all at a competitive disadvantage as none of them will have a clubhouse etc. paid for by taxpayer money. Similarly, we cannot afford to have every developer saying hey, the only way we can compete is with TIF financing, the only fair thing would be to give them all TIF financing and then watch what happens to your taxes. Increased population brings expenses that are never mentioned, for example, we have a comptroller now because the county grew, we have more judges because our population grew. If a larger population meant lower taxes- then why doesn't New York City have the lowest taxes? The greater the population, the higher the taxes-a simple rule. Well, paulkellet, if I were buying a house in Adams County NONE of those developments, including Discovery, would interest me. So, to that, I say your point is invalid, as you are focusing on just a select group of people that may be interested in moving to Adams County. I am far more concerned with my tax dollars supporting what could be an unfair balance between private enterprise and land slowly being eaten up by conservationists and preservationists in the county, which I think would deal a far more lethal blow to the economic health of Adams County. We have to find something that is going to spark an interest and attract private enterprise and industry to the county. If TIF financing will open that door I think we need to be open to that option. To be honest, I think you and moose's beef is with the distrust of local government and the taxing inequity awarded to certain property owners in the county because right or wrong they knew how to play the game. Not something I disagree with by the way. In my opinion it's a bias that you are having trouble seeing beyond.
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Dexter
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Post by Dexter on Feb 15, 2014 15:13:36 GMT -5
Will not the vast majority of the jobs for this development be construction jobs? How are they not temporary? When building is done so are the jobs? This idea that a development will lower taxes/keep them at bay still puzzles me? The highest taxes in this county are Gettysburg Boro, but throw that out cause of the tax exempt stuff, the Carroll Valley Development/Borough, and Conewago Township, a development suburb of Hanover. Housing development doesn't equate to lower taxes!
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moose
Post Master
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Post by moose on Feb 15, 2014 17:40:36 GMT -5
I feel a little better about Ravensgirl, after her rant above, than I did before. The reassessment pissed a LOT of people off and opened a lot of eyes. It shed some light on some of the inequities going on, and the not so secret scheme to preserve every possible acre of land in the county. The preservationists are well organized and have clout in key positions in the county to make their dream a reality. I am not against preserving land, however, I am against doing so when an elaborate, obscure, sophisticated assessment scheme siphons money from one (larger) group of people, to benefit a smaller unique group of people, without the knowledge of the larger group of people. We are powerless to do anything about it until SOMEONE stands up against them.
It seems most on this blog are against higher taxes, yet we can't agree on how to bring tax relief. I too, like Ravensgirl, am sick and tired of the languid economic conditions locally. If one wants to make any semblance of a living wage, they must travel in order to do so. If Maryland could charge a fee for daily travel into their state for employment by non-residents, they could solve a lot of their revenue problems. While I agree in part with Ravensgirl, I don't think a another public subsidy to a private entity in the form of a TIF, is the answer.
What I do think we need to do is unite and require answers and accountability from our government employees. That is what they are....employees. They are supposed to work for US! Just how much money goes to financing land preservation annually? Who really benefits from that money and would that money be better spent on something else that would be of a collective benefit like a reservoir/watershed/recreational area? Our elected officials need to hear from every one of us who is sick and tired of status quo and HIGH TAXES! As the assessment scheme goes in the county now, 90% of the taxpayers pay a disproportionate share of the taxes, for the sole benefit of 10% of the taxpayers and their precious land. We should all be taxed lawfully, equally, and fairly as the Pennsylvania Constitution allows. If we wait to speak up, it may be too late.
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Dexter
Supreme Poster
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Post by Dexter on Feb 15, 2014 17:53:31 GMT -5
Did the people not speak when they overwhelmingly voted for the 10 million bond for ag and open space preservation? The people in this county overwhelmingly support efforts to maintain the rural atmosphere we have here. Hell, that is why you all move here and agree to travel ridiculous miles to work everyday. You like living in the country or else you'd move to Frederick, Gathersburg, Camp Hill or Mechanicsburg! Now, I have no problem what so ever with your pushing the clean and green issue, but, you will get a lot of push back from me, and I am sure many in the county, if you push back against efforts for open land preservation.
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moose
Post Master
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Post by moose on Feb 15, 2014 18:14:33 GMT -5
Did the people not speak when they overwhelmingly voted for the 10 million bond for ag and open space preservation? The people in this county overwhelmingly support efforts to maintain the rural atmosphere we have here. Hell, that is why you all move here and agree to travel ridiculous miles to work everyday. You like living in the country or else you'd move to Frederick, Gathersburg, Camp Hill or Mechanicsburg! Now, I have no problem what so ever with your pushing the clean and green issue, but, you will get a lot of push back from me, and I am sure many in the county, if you push back against efforts for open land preservation. Hell, I even voted for that. Although I must admit, it was a rather vague question on the ballot. Who in their right mind wouldn't vote for that? Sounded good then, and it would probably sound good again....worded similarly. What they failed to tell you was how they would go about doing all that. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't most of that for the purchase of the 2200 acre Gladfelter tree farm? If so, I support that. I'd never want to see that parcel divided up, unless the majority of it was for my home . The problem with the assessment scheme is there is supposed to be a trade-off. In exchange for subsidies, the farmers bring something to market. If no commodity, their non-productive land is open for passive recreation. The way the county is doing it, it actually HURTS the real farmers because they discount land that doesn't/hasn't met the qualifications, thereby making the farmers pay a disproportionate share on the improvements on their land. There should be transparency so everyone knows what the deal is. You can spin lots of things to make them sound good and acceptable, or as I stated earlier you can polish a turd, but it's still a turd.
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Post by Venter on Feb 15, 2014 18:21:04 GMT -5
... if I were buying a house in Adams County NONE of those developments, including Discovery, would interest me. So, to that, I say your point is invalid, as you are focusing on just a select group of people that may be interested in moving to Adams County. Along that line of reasoning, then, couldn't you consider this?: - Out of 100% of the persons who want to move into the Gettysburg Region, how many are OVER 55?
For sake of argument, let's say 40% are over 55... that means you've eliminated 60% of your potential market. - Not everyone 55+ will be looking to buy NEW, and for quite some time, that's all that will be available in Discovery.
- Once the Previously Owned Discovery houses become available, they will compete with their own kind.
- Considering that the inhabitants begin at age 55, then their lifespan IS shorter, and turnover will most likely be quicker. (Their 30+ Year-Old Children can't take over the house)
- 100% of the persons who move into Discovery MUST be 55+
- If even 50% of the people over 55 are disinterested in such a development, as many will be, then the pool of potential customers is reduced tremendously.
- Out of the remaining 50%, there are other 55+ Options Available to them - and we are just talking about THIS Region.
- If Potential 55+ Buyers are looking at Gettysburg, aren't they also looking elsewhere?
Here is a Link to some Local Housing Statistics. When you click on this, it takes you DIRECTLY TO THE PDF, do not be alarmed RAYAC Housing Sales 17325 RegionMake of it what you will, but it doesn't look like the most glowing review to me.
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Post by lifesaver on Feb 15, 2014 19:54:49 GMT -5
... if I were buying a house in Adams County NONE of those developments, including Discovery, would interest me. So, to that, I say your point is invalid, as you are focusing on just a select group of people that may be interested in moving to Adams County. Along that line of reasoning, then, couldn't you consider this?: - Out of 100% of the persons who want to move into the Gettysburg Region, how many are OVER 55?
For sake of argument, let's say 40% are over 55... that means you've eliminated 60% of your potential market. - Not everyone 55+ will be looking to buy NEW, and for quite some time, that's all that will be available in Discovery.
- Once the Previously Owned Discovery houses become available, they will compete with their own kind.
- Considering that the inhabitants begin at age 55, then their lifespan IS shorter, and turnover will most likely be quicker. (Their 30+ Year-Old Children can't take over the house)
- 100% of the persons who move into Discovery MUST be 55+
- If even 50% of the people over 55 are disinterested in such a development, as many will be, then the pool of potential customers is reduced tremendously.
- Out of the remaining 50%, there are other 55+ Options Available to them - and we are just talking about THIS Region.
- If Potential 55+ Buyers are looking at Gettysburg, aren't they also looking elsewhere?
Here is a Link to some Local Housing Statistics. When you click on this, it takes you DIRECTLY TO THE PDF, do not be alarmed RAYAC Housing Sales 17325 RegionMake of it what you will, but it doesn't look like the most glowing review to me. Short answer I agree. People look for different things when looking to buy into the area. The difference with the Discovery project is that there will be a targeted market to 55+ people in the Baltimore/DC and other metropolitan areas.
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Post by lifesaver on Feb 15, 2014 20:12:37 GMT -5
Did the people not speak when they overwhelmingly voted for the 10 million bond for ag and open space preservation? The people in this county overwhelmingly support efforts to maintain the rural atmosphere we have here. Hell, that is why you all move here and agree to travel ridiculous miles to work everyday. You like living in the country or else you'd move to Frederick, Gathersburg, Camp Hill or Mechanicsburg! Now, I have no problem what so ever with your pushing the clean and green issue, but, you will get a lot of push back from me, and I am sure many in the county, if you push back against efforts for open land preservation. Hell, I even voted for that. Although I must admit, it was a rather vague question on the ballot. Who in their right mind wouldn't vote for that? Sounded good then, and it would probably sound good again....worded similarly. What they failed to tell you was how they would go about doing all that. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't most of that for the purchase of the 2200 acre Gladfelter tree farm? If so, I support that. I'd never want to see that parcel divided up, unless the majority of it was for my home . The problem with the assessment scheme is there is supposed to be a trade-off. In exchange for subsidies, the farmers bring something to market. If no commodity, their non-productive land is open for passive recreation. The way the county is doing it, it actually HURTS the real farmers because they discount land that doesn't/hasn't met the qualifications, thereby making the farmers pay a disproportionate share on the improvements on their land. There should be transparency so everyone knows what the deal is. You can spin lots of things to make them sound good and acceptable, or as I stated earlier you can polish a turd, but it's still a turd. I don't want anyone to thing that I'm opposed to preservation and land conservation because I'm not. I am opposed to an imbalance in preservation and land conservation. The area in question is designated for development. There are plenty of open spaces still in Adams County. If you look at any of the new growth in Chambersburg or Hanover you don't have to go very far out of town until you are in beautiful farmlands and countryside. I would not want the area where I live developed. I like going out my front door and picking fresh fruit off a tree, planting a big garden and eating fresh vegies, opening my windows in the summer and enjoying the fresh air, sharing my land with deer and other wildlife (could do without the snakes though ) and the boys peeing in the yard and nobody cares. Even thinking about getting a few chickens. But to use one of Venter's phrases, we shouldn't be looking to preserve everywhere a horse walked and took a shit. There was an interesting article in today's Times. I think it helps to explain some of the struggles of small business in Adams County.
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Dexter
Supreme Poster
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Post by Dexter on Feb 16, 2014 8:04:50 GMT -5
Did the people not speak when they overwhelmingly voted for the 10 million bond for ag and open space preservation? The people in this county overwhelmingly support efforts to maintain the rural atmosphere we have here. Hell, that is why you all move here and agree to travel ridiculous miles to work everyday. You like living in the country or else you'd move to Frederick, Gathersburg, Camp Hill or Mechanicsburg! Now, I have no problem what so ever with your pushing the clean and green issue, but, you will get a lot of push back from me, and I am sure many in the county, if you push back against efforts for open land preservation. Hell, I even voted for that. Although I must admit, it was a rather vague question on the ballot. Who in their right mind wouldn't vote for that? Sounded good then, and it would probably sound good again....worded similarly. What they failed to tell you was how they would go about doing all that. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't most of that for the purchase of the 2200 acre Gladfelter tree farm? If so, I support that. I'd never want to see that parcel divided up, unless the majority of it was for my home . The problem with the assessment scheme is there is supposed to be a trade-off. In exchange for subsidies, the farmers bring something to market. If no commodity, their non-productive land is open for passive recreation. The way the county is doing it, it actually HURTS the real farmers because they discount land that doesn't/hasn't met the qualifications, thereby making the farmers pay a disproportionate share on the improvements on their land. There should be transparency so everyone knows what the deal is. You can spin lots of things to make them sound good and acceptable, or as I stated earlier you can polish a turd, but it's still a turd. I don't have the details in memory but, no way was 10 million all for the Gladfelter farm. Something like 2 mill sticks in my head? But, I am confused about your comment Moose. I think you are confusing preservation program/efforts and clean and green or at the least changing the topic? The bond was developed for purchase of easements. That's a different topic than the clean and green issues.
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Post by Venter on Feb 16, 2014 12:09:01 GMT -5
How can anyone be confused? ACALPB, ACEDC; ACIDA... "Preservation Efforts"; "Land Conservancy"; "Land Preservation Program"; "Clean & Green"; "Lean Mean Grilling Machine"... There are more programs and acronyms in this little part of the world than I've ever heard of in my life! WTF? I've said it before, when there are so many "Organizations" all vying for the same slices of the pie, you get a pie fight. How can anyone know which is good, and which is bad? Which to ask for assistance, and which is right for your particular needs? If it has "AC" in its acronym, does that mean it is an official program of the Adams County Government? NO! (and that doesn't mean New Oxford in this case ) Let's face it, in any case, someone is looking to Save Money, and someone is Making Money in these programs. If someone can save a lot of money by enrolling in one of these programs, then many people would say, "More power to them!"But, you see, that's NOT the way Government Monies should be doled out. Just because someone is smart enough, or rich enough to be able to use the system, doesn't give them the RIGHTS to use the system - any more than the guy down the street who is equally eligible for tax relief, increments, rebates, or whatever. If there are properties that qualify for certain Programs or Grants, then it should be distributed in a fair and equitable manner - or not at all. Whether that land is eligible for Tax Increment Financing, or Clean and Green, or Land Conservancy - the bottom line is that SOMEONE Pays LESS than the next guy because he used the system. It's like Adams County and the State are giving preference to some, at the cost of the rest. This ISN'T Giant Food Stores giving Credits for Gas in exchange for using their Grocery Store - for investing in their "brand", and being loyal. This is the GOVERNMENT divvying up our taxes in so many ways, that it's no wonder people are getting their programs crossed. Dexter, Moose, and everyone else can only keep so many programs and miniscule differences in check... and these are some of the MORE Educated Members. Think of what it's like to an idiot like me!
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moose
Post Master
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Post by moose on Feb 16, 2014 20:04:28 GMT -5
Consider that those who belong to the groups mentioned above are very familiar with each other, friends, and have common interests. Now consider that those who make the decisions, or at the very least, suggest or nominate who gets the hundreds of thousand of dollars doled out each year in easements. Only a few families per year get the privilege of having the local government buy (the rights to) their land at (mostly) market value and allow the owners to continue living on it, and in most cases the owners retain the ability to build on and/or subdivide and re-sell it again as much as the agricultural zoning will allow.
Who here, thinks there isn't some back-scratching going on? Bound by a common interest of preserving land which just so happens enriches their own pockets, this is a ripe situation for wrong-doings. Each one of us needs to make their own mind up as to what degree, if any, any wrong-doing is going on. Before you make your mind up, familiarize yourselves with those making the decisions in these organizations, their ties to local officials, and do your homework. I've done mine and studied Adams County property cards and deeds for the last four years. I've made my mind up and I am steadfast in my pursuit of justice for 90% of Adams County real property owners. I've got an uphill battle with the parochial hierarchy and politicking, but I will take it as far as the law allows. I've got one little tidbit that I'm holding on to that will explain just how steep that hill is I must climb. That should be the "AHA" moment when it all becomes clear to the rest of the viewers.
In the beginning, some good folk DONATED their easements. These days, if they aren't assured of getting "market value" or "full price" for their land, they aren't happy. Just think of all the ass-kissing, elbow-rubbing at those events they have. This could be the local spin-off of Dynasty or Dallas...complete with a road race.
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Dexter
Supreme Poster
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Post by Dexter on Feb 16, 2014 20:16:30 GMT -5
Sorry Moose, they don't get "mostly" market value (talk about polishing a turd!). The ranking process for preserving a farm is quite objective (done almost completely by computer), no favoritism going on there. The price for the easements is negotiated and I am sure some "politicking' is going on, but, wouldn't know for certain. The restrictions on selling, subdividing and building are set by the easement NOT zoning. You can dislike the preservation program, but, maybe you should understand it a little bit better before you spout off.
Oh, and what events are you speaking of? I suspect you are referring to the events held by the Land Conservancy of Adams County. That is a totally different animal than the County's AgLand Preservation Program.
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Post by Venter on Feb 16, 2014 20:50:00 GMT -5
Sorry Moose, they don't get "mostly" market value (talk about polishing a turd!). The ranking process for preserving a farm is quite objective (done almost completely by computer), no favoritism going on there. The price for the easements is negotiated and I am sure some "politicking' is going on, but, wouldn't know for certain. The restrictions on selling, subdividing and building are set by the easement NOT zoning. You can dislike the preservation program, but, maybe you should understand it a little bit better before you spout off. Oh, and what events are you speaking of? I suspect you are referring to the events held by the Land Conservancy of Adams County. That is a totally different animal than the County's AgLand Preservation Program. ... and you wonder why we get confused
Dexter, or Moose, can you try to give us a Crib Sheet on these Programs? Which are Federal, State, County, Private, etc? Just the basics. I mean, come on, what is the difference between "Conservancy' and "Preservation"?
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moose
Post Master
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Post by moose on Feb 16, 2014 20:50:50 GMT -5
Sorry Moose, they don't get "mostly" market value (talk about polishing a turd!). The ranking process for preserving a farm is quite objective (done almost completely by computer), no favoritism going on there. The price for the easements is negotiated and I am sure some "politicking' is going on, but, wouldn't know for certain. The restrictions on selling, subdividing and building are set by the easement NOT zoning. You can dislike the preservation program, but, maybe you should understand it a little bit better before you spout off. Oh, and what events are you speaking of? I suspect you are referring to the events held by the Land Conservancy of Adams County. That is a totally different animal than the County's AgLand Preservation Program. The majority donate a small "portion" of the easement amount. Attached below is a pdf showing a sample of the funds distributed. There are various sources of funding, most if not all of it is taxpayer money, whether it is local or otherwise. The "donated" part is the part the owners actually accepted less than market value. The Green Space funding and the Match must be added together for the total compensation. True, the easements are negotiated, but the owner CANNOT subdivide the parcels more than is allowed in an agriculturally zoned area. I've seen easements that allow up to ten or more homesites, depending on the acreage of the parcel and local restrictions. My biggest point of contention is I'd rather see the funds used for a collective good as I mentioned previously, rather than for individual enrichment. As taxpayers we retain no rights whatsoever over the lands "preserved". Need water...pipe it in from York County! green_space_projects_2008-2011.pdf (19.75 KB)
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moose
Post Master
Posts: 184
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Post by moose on Feb 16, 2014 20:56:09 GMT -5
... and you wonder why we get confused
Dexter, or Moose, can you try to give us a Crib Sheet on these Programs? Which are Federal, State, County, Private, etc? Just the basics. I mean, come on, what is the difference between "Conservancy' and "Preservation"?
I'll concede to Dexter to explain the differences. I view them as very similar.
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davew
Poster Child
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Post by davew on Feb 17, 2014 10:07:59 GMT -5
Not putting words in your mouth, but I do, too. An extreme waste of ("someone else's") money.
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Dexter
Supreme Poster
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Post by Dexter on Feb 17, 2014 11:32:28 GMT -5
I'm not trying to defend the practice of using govt. funds to preserve farms; only trying to stick with facts, as best as I know them (which isn't saying a whole lot). So the fact is that a majority of Adams County residents wish to maintain the rural nature of this county. The county has had a AgLand Preservation Program for well over 20 years. I think most of their funding comes through PA Department of Agriculture leveraged with County money. More recently a referendum was placed on the ballot concerning upto 10 million dollars to continue and expand this philosophy of purchasing easements on farmland, important forestlands and other open space, but, I am pretty sure that this money, although not disallowed, hasn't been used to offset the funding AgLand preservation uses. I think that the only moneys from that bond went to the Gladfelter property??
There is a well established non-profit organization called the Land Conservancy of Adams County that has the ability to seek out grants and other funding sources to do a very similar thing. I know that the AgLand Preservation Program administered by that County Office of Planning and Development has very strict and well enforced rules on the process they use to preserve a farm, while the LCAC has more flexibility in how they do it. They certainly make use of many funding sources for their efforts and receive moneys and support from the county.
Now, I'm not as sure on the Green Space Commission mentioned by Moose. They are using, I believe special funding from the State Department of Environmental Protection for their source of revenue leveraged against other sources (including the approved bond money). I can't speak on their process of picking sites or how they go through the process of buying easements.
Clean and Green is even less understood by me. Except to say that the intent of this program is to give some tax relief to "larger" land owners which typically means farmers. It has restrictions in regards to having to pay back a portion of the tax savings if/when the site is developed, but, it places no restrictions on doing so. Whereas the other programs purchase easements (most all are forever) that severely restrict what and how the property can be "developed". Obviously Moose has posed several questions to the county concerning the way that they administer this program, but, he understands that way more than I do.
So, now that I've cleared absolutely NOTHING up with my feeble explanation, I will end by saying that there exists in this county a large number of residents who wish to maintain that rural nature of the county and several options exist for LCAC and the County to develop preservation areas within the county and the County has historically received much support from the residents for doing so.
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